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Electric Motors Winding and Repair Electric Motors Winding and Repair Discussion


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Old 09-11-2020, 09:36 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Pyro 650 rewind YY

My first winding Pyro 650-103, I rewind 4+5 YY 1.3mm wire, measure rpm 13560 at 12.4V

I have question, the Pyro 650 competition
is the same physical dimension at standard version but difference winding, is it YY winding?










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Old 09-12-2020, 12:42 AM   #2 (permalink)
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No, all factory Pyros are delta winded.
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Old 09-12-2020, 01:58 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powercroco View Post
No, all factory Pyros are delta winded.
Thank you, is that you who is the owner of powerdito.de pages, I follow the YY winding scheme at there?
So are Pyro competition and standard the same physical size? what is difference they made the competition had lower IR and more power?
Thanks again.
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Old 09-12-2020, 07:21 AM   #4 (permalink)
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The same size and the same materials are used in housing, stator and magnets but the housing has other colours outside.


only thicker wire is used in winding.
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Old 09-12-2020, 09:18 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Thank you, I see, one more question,
Assume Kv is nearly the same, is the YY winding better than Competition edition, IR and Power?
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Old 09-12-2020, 09:35 AM   #6 (permalink)
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no connection is better or bader (Y,D,YY,DD and so on) - you have to compare the resulting coppersquare in winding !
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Old 09-12-2020, 11:00 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Thank you.
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Old 09-12-2020, 11:47 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powercroco View Post
The same size and the same materials are used in housing, stator and magnets but the housing has other colours outside.


only thicker wire is used in winding.
I have a question here as well: so with lower resistance in the windings, the Pyro 650 Comp would produce more power, but also operate at higher temps when conpared to the stock Pyro 650?

Do you know at what amperage each motor achieves its peak efficiency?!

thanks for sharing your knowledge, I’ve heard many answers to this question but not sure they came from someone as knowledgeable as you!

Much appreciated!!!
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Old 09-13-2020, 12:54 AM   #9 (permalink)
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there is no easy answer to this question.


with thicker wire you can improve the efficiency up to 3-4%.
this costs some grams of additional weight.
3-4% more efficiency are about up to 25% of losses.



as long, as you increase the power consumption less than these 25% the drive will run cooler.
if you use the now possible power, the system will of course run warmer!


I hope, someone can understand, what I try to declare.....
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Old 09-13-2020, 01:01 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powercroco View Post
there is no easy answer to this question.


with thicker wire you can improve the efficiency up to 3-4%.
this costs some grams of additional weight.
3-4% more efficiency are about up to 25% of losses.



as long, as you increase the power consumption less than these 25% the drive will run cooler.
if you use the now possible power, the system will of course run warmer!


I hope, someone can understand, what I try to declare.....
wow, thanks so much!!! I did understand your points I think...

I’ve noticed the Comps weigh a little more, so that comes from the higher copper density...

so if you stay at the same power consumption level you were with the regular pyro (or up to 120% of it, being conservative), THEN you benefit from that increased efficiency in the range of 3-4%.

So that makes sense why K rates the regular Pyro to 3kW and the Comp to 3.5kW, so then up to 3.5kw being thrown at the motor, it would be 3-4% MORE efficient than the regular Pyro. Is this correct?

Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge, I love this subject and really appreciate it!!!
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Old 09-14-2020, 12:33 AM   #11 (permalink)
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in real life the benefit of thicker wire depends on the load. as higher the load, as higher the benefit.


this is caused by the relation between copper losses and all other losses.
at higher load al other losses become lower and the copperlosses become more important.


try to read:
powerditto Verluste
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Old 09-14-2020, 12:46 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powercroco View Post
in real life the benefit of thicker wire depends on the load. as higher the load, as higher the benefit.


this is caused by the relation between copper losses and all other losses.
at higher load al other losses become lower and the copperlosses become more important.


try to read:
powerditto Verluste
I will read it!!! understood your point!!! thanks very much!!!
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Old 09-14-2020, 01:03 AM   #13 (permalink)
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great read, makes clear how much the winding quality can influence ANY motor’s efficiency! I thought that the iron losses would be much more significant, but as load rises, copper is much more influential!!! thanks again for sharing this!
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Old 10-01-2020, 07:53 AM   #14 (permalink)
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The next progression in high efficiency windings from here is the integral slot multi layer winding and in many cases the dc copper losses are slightly more than what you have here. A single tooth winding system also allows a new winder a better chance of more copper fill. Admittedly the complication then becomes terminals to UVW.
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Old 10-01-2020, 08:19 AM   #15 (permalink)
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But then again I don't truly see the advantage of dual or higher multilayer winds unless you are running a speed control with sinus or synbred (yge, kosmic, KISS, FOC) commutation. If it is a Chinese "Mystery" or Castle for instance there is a possibility to optimize the trapezoidal commutation power system by utilizing the advantage of a higher winding factor (torque) and triggering bemf wave form the single layer would give.

A single tooth winding system....
https://www.helifreak.com/search.php...r_%20modisc731
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Last edited by 1BOHO; 10-01-2020 at 08:58 AM..
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Old 10-05-2020, 01:02 AM   #16 (permalink)
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...

Last edited by powercroco; 10-08-2020 at 02:01 PM..
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Old 10-08-2020, 05:37 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I see it different . You can in a smaller strand because there is no crossing wire and all the terminations can take place outside the hood. UVW also doesn't have to exit side by side through a pyros native exit plan. The smaller strands would be of course all parallel at the inverter. Most motors have 4 exits so really there is no reason other than aesthetics that the terminals all have to exit from one. You can wind single tooth Delta winding systems and not one splice or iota of solder has to be used to terminate the motor at the invertor and avoid the under hood clutter. Even in a dual layer single tooth systems have more slot room with zero crossing wires. That part is inherent from a physical standpoint. The crossing wire on the outside which gives more room only exposes it to the higher proximity loss zone. It looks really good but will not be the ultimate performer in a power system teamed with a "Trapezius" drive.

A high current buss bar array outside the hood will also work, but then again hooking it up correctly to the inverter straight from the individually wound coils makes the inverter the buss

Last edited by 1BOHO; 10-08-2020 at 06:37 AM..
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Old 10-08-2020, 06:29 AM   #18 (permalink)
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@ Flipper
This might be a bit side tracked from " 650 pyro" but generally speaking the benefits about thick wire depend on the application. If the motors loads point occurred at a high rpm for instance the large single wire would be the wurst. The reason other high efficiency design processes involve using multiple strands of < 1mm is because at that depth of wire the skin effect immunity has a much broader rpm range at which it will effectively work. In many situations its also much easier to wind and the only real way to get wire in the slot. So you could say It also depends on the slot geometry of any given motor. Large wire would not be the ultimate with a Neumotors slot geometry for instance.
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Last edited by 1BOHO; 10-08-2020 at 06:59 AM..
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Old 10-08-2020, 01:06 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Modisc examined the native pyro 1000 which was wound in a half parallel delta. More power density. U see every lead goes to the inverter no soldered pigtails of a WYE.




Last edited by 1BOHO; 10-08-2020 at 01:18 PM..
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Old 10-08-2020, 02:50 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1BOHO View Post
@ Flipper
This might be a bit side tracked from " 650 pyro" but generally speaking the benefits about thick wire depend on the application. If the motors loads point occurred at a high rpm for instance the large single wire would be the wurst. The reason other high efficiency design processes involve using multiple strands of < 1mm is because at that depth of wire the skin effect immunity has a much broader rpm range at which it will effectively work. In many situations its also much easier to wind and the only real way to get wire in the slot. So you could say It also depends on the slot geometry of any given motor. Large wire would not be the ultimate with a Neumotors slot geometry for instance.

Thanks, this is helpful, although I personally still have too much to learn to even begin to understand this field properly...


I did get your point on the slot geometry relationship to type of wire utilized, had never thought about that to be honest, and also the skin effect differences between thicker and thinner gauges...
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