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Old 05-11-2012, 11:33 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by helihaven View Post
You mean a non-raise...but still have the dual link slider arms and anti-rotation pin?
Yes, would that be possible? And maybe setup to run stock B450/450X tailshaft/pulley/bearings and pitch slider?

Basically a 12mm dual arm 450 case..
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Old 05-11-2012, 11:51 AM   #42 (permalink)
 

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Yah I imagine I could make one to use the stock B400 or B450 tailshaft and pulley...but I would have to know which one...B400 is 3mm shaft..and B450 is 4mm...but everything else pretty much would have to be of my own making..
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:03 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Id rather use the bigger 450 if possible, that way its tougher than the 400 and I can still get crash parts at the LHS. Could you use the 450 tail case bearings, or at least the source for what bearings you would use?

I am very interested in doing this, as It would make it worth doing a fbl conversion on my 400.

Unless you recommend a better tail shaft thats easy to find?
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:18 PM   #44 (permalink)
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If you are really considering doing this. I highly recommend getting the cncheli carbonfibre or fiberglass frame kit as a basic platform to build on instead of the plastic body. It is far far more rigid and easy to work around. This moves the entire project quality up about 10 notches. No other heli platform in the industry is as well built in the 450 field.

Just my 2c.
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:22 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Yeah, but If im gonna do that I might as well swap to a 450 frame and 14mm boom..then a good tail assm would be easy to find. I want to keep this thing as light as possible so I dont overwork the stock motor/esc.

I accept the fact that its a weak turd of a heli, but I dont want to get too carried away with it. Its fine except for the crappy tail set-up.
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Old 05-12-2012, 02:04 AM   #46 (permalink)
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I said that same thing about my trex. Haha!
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Old 05-25-2012, 02:50 PM   #47 (permalink)
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I also wanted to quickly update this thread. After talking to Ancient Pete we decided to scrap the stock plastic frame and go with a new CNCHeli carbonfibre version instead. I also scrapped the Gy401 in favor of a much much better Kde900avcs gyro I had been saving for the last few years for use on one of my own. However all my birds are now fbl. I found this gyro performed as well if not better than my previous quark clearcase. Now the tail is bulletproof.

I ended up carving one of the fins off the top of each side of the Ice50 so I could easily fit it under the forward battery tray in the new cf frame. I also moved his forward cyclic servo up into the main head area. This will allow him to carry larger battery loads up front without linkage interference. It also cleans up the entire assembly, and now the servos are all precisely controlling the swash in the same ratio.

I installed the Rx inside the rear shell, reinforced the forward motor mount with carbonfibre overlays, and did the half zillion little mods it takes to finish a custom project like this. Like building another new head and installing a new swash. This same swash is also from CncHeli and is the one guys use when going fbl. The raised center swash ball location allowed me to use a much beefier and more precise custom built pro head.

I also rebuilt the tail assembly with a new highly modded G5 grip assembly. These track true! Unlike the align copied previous grip assembly. What a pile those are.
I went through 14 grip assemblies and not a single pair tracked true! Only the G5s pulled it off. I also installed a new longer align 500 belt so this heli is capible of running Composite 395 blades with room to spare. With the flymentor turned off this new setup hovers almost hands free!

I also tuned down the throttle response in the Ice50 so this version handles quite gently without any suprises. And the new tail?

Locked in like a cold steel vice! This new gyro simply makes the heli! I have to admit. I hated the Gy401. Just the fact you cannot individually set each sides travel limit drove me nuts. I ended up flying this all over yesterday in some heavy winds. This new tail stays planted almost as well as my SK720. Almost.

I did have to weight the canopy nose with 23grams to precisely balance this heli. So hopefully Ancient Petes new 2000ma 6s battery will come close. My 2200nano was slightly overweight. So I dropped down to a custom built 6s pack and spent some time getting things perfect. Plus I installed a Rhino 9t to calm down the headspeed so it is more user friendly for a parkflying newer pilot.

I also did all my gyro setup work on my rotating test stand. So that under power the main head tracking and tail setup was already close to perfect before I ever lifted it off.
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Old 05-27-2012, 11:52 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Good day sir,
The sum of your great creative and engineering talents looks, er...nothing like a blade 400 any more...Long sleek and beautifull..
Me thinks it might be too good to fly. Just place it on a pedestal and admire it for a milenium of two..
Thanks Randy for all your hard work on this superb example of your skills. God Bless.
Ancient Pete.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Luvmyhelis View Post
I also wanted to quickly update this thread. After talking to Ancient Pete we decided to scrap the stock plastic frame and go with a new CNCHeli carbonfibre version instead. I also scrapped the Gy401 in favor of a much much better Kde900avcs gyro I had been saving for the last few years for use on one of my own. However all my birds are now fbl. I found this gyro performed as well if not better than my previous quark clearcase. Now the tail is bulletproof.

I ended up carving one of the fins off the top of each side of the Ice50 so I could easily fit it under the forward battery tray in the new cf frame. I also moved his forward cyclic servo up into the main head area. This will allow him to carry larger battery loads up front without linkage interference. It also cleans up the entire assembly, and now the servos are all precisely controlling the swash in the same ratio.

I installed the Rx inside the rear shell, reinforced the forward motor mount with carbonfibre overlays, and did the half zillion little mods it takes to finish a custom project like this. Like building another new head and installing a new swash. This same swash is also from CncHeli and is the one guys use when going fbl. The raised center swash ball location allowed me to use a much beefier and more precise custom built pro head.

I also rebuilt the tail assembly with a new highly modded G5 grip assembly. These track true! Unlike the align copied previous grip assembly. What a pile those are.
I went through 14 grip assemblies and not a single pair tracked true! Only the G5s pulled it off. I also installed a new longer align 500 belt so this heli is capible of running Composite 395 blades with room to spare. With the flymentor turned off this new setup hovers almost hands free!

I also tuned down the throttle response in the Ice50 so this version handles quite gently without any suprises. And the new tail?

Locked in like a cold steel vice! This new gyro simply makes the heli! I have to admit. I hated the Gy401. Just the fact you cannot individually set each sides travel limit drove me nuts. I ended up flying this all over yesterday in some heavy winds. This new tail stays planted almost as well as my SK720. Almost.

I did have to weight the canopy nose with 23grams to precisely balance this heli. So hopefully Ancient Petes new 2000ma 6s battery will come close. My 2200nano was slightly overweight. So I dropped down to a custom built 6s pack and spent some time getting things perfect. Plus I installed a Rhino 9t to calm down the headspeed so it is more user friendly for a parkflying newer pilot.

I also did all my gyro setup work on my rotating test stand. So that under power the main head tracking and tail setup was already close to perfect before I ever lifted it off.
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Old 05-28-2012, 03:07 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ancient Pete View Post
Good day sir,
The sum of your great creative and engineering talents looks, er...nothing like a blade 400 any more...Long sleek and beautifull..
Me thinks it might be too good to fly. Just place it on a pedestal and admire it for a milenium of two..
Thanks Randy for all your hard work on this superb example of your skills. God Bless.
Ancient Pete.
Thanks AP! But I am far from done yet. I have new 385mm blades coming in from HeliHaven and am fabbing up a grip set to handle them. I am sending two sets of heads. One will fit the 360mm blades and the other will fit the fat longer blade root 385mm and up versions. I also spent half the night till 1am fabbing new boom supports that effectively pin the raised tail between them and stabilize any boom twist or wag.

I also built a much heavier stiffer servo rod and eliminated the rear stabilizer servo rod guide. It really cleaned things up. Now the heli perfectly balances with the 2250ma Turnigy 6s 35-50c batt. This batt weighs in at 336.4g. Welcome to the wonderful world of 15min flights! Also on your Ice50 log this setup is only pulling about 8amps overall. Even when I punched it it rarely exceeded 10 to 12 tops.

I have to be careful here as it has a new Rhino 9t pinion. And until the teeth dull down a little it will carve up a delrin gear like a hot knife through butter with all the available power this now has. So to be safe I programmed the Ice50 to give a lazy rpm response and super slow spool up for the time being.

I also posted up a hovering pic of your new heli on the main forum under a RH skid dip thread. As proof the raised tail system eliminates right hand skid dip. This heli hovers almost perfectly flat. Kind of uncanny, and very cool!

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Last edited by Luvmyhelis; 05-28-2012 at 03:13 PM.. Reason: additional info
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Old 05-29-2012, 12:40 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Well, here is what happens when a beautiful heli has a bearing seize up. This is the first heli I have ever seen explode in midair, ever. I almost puked.
All the new panels, ceramics, shafts, canopy and servo gears are already on order. Just as soon as I get HeliDirect to accept the labor day discount code they say doesn't exist when you check out.
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Old 05-29-2012, 12:53 AM   #51 (permalink)
 

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totally speechless dude.....ouch
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:52 AM   #52 (permalink)
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totally speechless dude.....ouch
Yeah, me too. I am still trying to wrap my head around this and definitively identify the culprit here. The odd thing is, the microheli main gear came out in pristine shape. Usually something seizes up and this is the first thing to go.
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Old 05-29-2012, 12:30 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Uggghh, not pretty. Sorry to see that. Looks like all the electrics survived unscathed which is a very good thing though! Maybe one of the bolts out of the upper portion of the frame due to it being doubled up and not having enough threads into the cross brace slipped loose? possibly one of the bolts that connects the upper to lower frame? Are you using longer bolts on the doubled up spots? Anyway, sorry to see all that hardwork just to have to do it again so soon. Good luck with the rebuild and hope its back in the air soon!
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:36 PM   #54 (permalink)
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looking at the carnage carefully and you say the microheli gears survived plus the fact the it was a flybar heli makes me think this was a true boom strike with the main blades. Espescialy how it is torn at the mid section at the boom mount. Just my thoughts.
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Old 05-29-2012, 05:28 PM   #55 (permalink)
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looking at the carnage carefully and you say the microheli gears survived plus the fact the it was a flybar heli makes me think this was a true boom strike with the main blades. Espescialy how it is torn at the mid section at the boom mount. Just my thoughts.
Thanks Scott. I do appreciate your insight.

Yeah, I also looked for that. Not a single mark on the cf boom and nothing on the blade where it could strike it. I did have a dimple from where the actual blade hit the flybar when it all folded. Bizarre. In fact the only bend in the correct strike position is the flybar itself on one side. The other side is bent the other way from the immediate head rotation stop. No flybar strike anywhere on the boom,, in fact it would have tagged the tail servo. And on the canopy only a score coming across the receding side of the canopy. Which also could have happened when it tore loose as the pin snapped. This flipped it up into the path of the flybar and explains why the strike is on the top receding side. Either way the canopy is toast.

Deftronix, thanks also. I totally tore this down, checked every bearing, support, swash, ect ect till 3:30am. I can see where one of the head swash arms has a chunk out of the plastic from where it tore the guide out when the head spun around with the shaft bent at a 70deg. That is about it. The head is trashed anyways as you can never insure the cage is truly straight.

I briefly thought one of the lower tail guide idler pullies had sized up. But those new bearings were just grainy. And could have resulted from the stress of the belt snapping. This one is going down as a total mystery.

Again, what is totally weird is the fact the maingear is in pristine shape. even had the motor stopped violently it usually takes a tooth or two out.

Anyways, the new parts are on the way. Plus I custom built a new slider, and rebuilt the raised tail with all new abec 5s. Since the collar ridge is thicker on these new bearings I had to cut new parts for the raised tail and custom cut a new thinner idler gear.

I tried a new cncheli center slider bushing, and it is actually tighter on the shaft than the expensive microheli slider I had painstakenly grafted in earlier. And the slider hub bearings roll twice as tight and smooth. The microheli slider hub bearings rolled with a tight side and loose side, and also had a small wobble. Pretty disappointed with their quality on that setup.

Even align uses shanked bolts with their bushings on their tail linkages where MH just used threaded bolts that allowed the links to wobble. I had addressed that though. I am saddened that the expensive highly touted supossedly tight MH tail slider system turned out this poorly.
I did try to graft the cncheli slider hub into the two blade system but it only RH threads into a flat slider arm instead of the curved arms. So I don't have full grip angles using this. I may install a three blade cnc heli hub on this due to the fact.

Earlier, I had carved off about 1.5mm off the grip arm pin base from the G5 grips to make them work with the geometry of the upgrade microheli align style slider system. Those grips tracked dead on with ceramics. No wag, no wobble, nothing. I am still highly impressed with the G5 design there. But less than impressed with microheli. And far less impressed with any of the eflite and align tail grips I tested. I actually went through 14 sets of them and couldn't find a single pair that were machined true.

My next frame rebuild with the cncheli carbonfibre frame is going to double up the top panels with an underlying fiberglass panel version for strength in the tail boom support area. I already ordered in enough 6mm x 2mm stainless allen head bolts to make this work. I am replacing the CF body base plate with a fiberglass version while I am at it. They are twice as strong and you never see them anyways.

At least I am more than happy with the doubled up motor mount supports in the lower upper frames. They are about the only good news in this fiasco. They held up just fine.

All the cyclics lost their gears, and the forward cyclic snapped off right at the main shaft. So it looks like I have my work cut out there also.

Thanks for the suggestions guys.
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Old 05-30-2012, 09:12 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Well AP, the heli is already in the re-rebuild stage again.

I ordered all the parts needed from HeliDirect, someone there must have gotten a bonus on this order. Ouch!

Anyways, the servos are all rebuilt with new gears. And I cut a brand new mainshaft for it. Next I installed brand new ceramics where the abec 3s and other ceramics once were. Then I re-created two new carbonfibre boom supports and epoxied them together. I also wasn't totally happy with the microheli tail slider as it simply was not as great as they touted it to be. When the slider bearings and hub rotated they rotated with a slight wobble. Drove me nuts. So I custom fabbed up a new slider hub with one from CNC heli, then spent the better part of the entire day creating a new 3blade tail rotor for the raised tail system. I may never get all this black polishing compound out from underneath my fingernails! And I worked over the grip bearings, and all the linkages. I replaced every bolt with stainless versions and much better allen headed bolts everywhere. This thing not only looks stunning but tracks dead on.

I also installed yet again brand new abec 5 bearings throughout the raised tail. But the flanges were thicker on these so I had to cut new gears for it and a new lower idle guide gear. Talk about smooth and tight! I figure if I have to do this over, might as well keep improving things as I go.

While I was into the 3 blade system I cut down the lower tri-hub almost 2mm deeper and shaved off an equal amount off the main rotor hub. Now the grips have a tremendous amount of grip angle in both directions.

I also decided to double up the upper frame on the carbonfibre body shell so the tail boom support will be three or four times stronger when I am finished. I also ordered stainless allen head bolts for this job. The lower frame bottom section also split apart when the skids cracked. So I am going to use much stronger FG material here this time. Live and learn.

I still cannot fathom how the main shaft bent over at at least a full 70deg angle without striking anything? And the microheli main delrin gear remains untouched and in pristine condition. I cannot find any evidence of blade strike on any of the parts, including the main blades. I did find where the flybar blades struck and intersected the main blade but nothing with the mains directly. And oddly the canopy pins were snapped off at the base. So new beefier versions are on thier way. I am also checking out a few different tail shafts to see if I can find a fatter shaft, the versions I have now are mic'ing out undersized. I want to keep the slider tight as possible.

AP, this new tail is beautiful! And I have 3 new black Kbdd blades going on as soon as it gets installed in the new body. I spun it up on a 2mm shaft and this thing tracks dead-on! Love this.
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Old 06-08-2012, 04:01 PM   #57 (permalink)
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The heli is now resurrected. With quite a few upgrades I might add.

Servos rebuilt, upper frame halves doubled up with fiberglass versions underneath for increased servo support (like this frame even needs this) and boom support. I fabbed up sets of carbonfibre motor braces also. This new thicker frame needed some 6mm stainless allen head bolts to hold it all together. Exactly 30 of them.
Then replaced every bearing on the heli frame with new ceramics, and abec 5s on the raised tail. I also have a metal boom set en route to remove any threat of belt interference down the inside of the boom. The carbonfibre boom is twice as thick as the metal so I wanted more clearance there.

I also fabbed up a new pair of skids. This time using the 500 version strut supports with 600 bracing and tube supports. I hate the wimpy 500 tubes even more than the 450s. Also this round I am going with a reworked Tarot 450 head since my 450 pro head is now iffy after the explosion tore it up. I put in tighter bearings throughout, new shims, allen bolts, links, and stuffed Kbdd reds in it.
Helihaven is sending over a set of 385mm blades for this. So the grips are being replaced with wider versions and a new 63mm x 4mm feathering shaft is taking its place. It also has 2.5mm bolts so it is far more stable and able to support the larger blades.

All of the boom supports were rebuilt and improved on. This time I epoxied the ends on and cut the new rod to length. These don't move around at all! The tail servo rods are made by cutting down 3mm tubing and inserting 2mm threaded rod inside the ends and epoxying them into place. The rod is lighter and is so stiff I did away with the heavier servo guides altogether. The new 3 bladed tail is now running Kbdd black blades. Somehow this makes the heli look evil I think!

I ended up polishing a CncHeli 3 bladed tail system that Helihaven spent considerable time on earlier. He custom machined new bushings all around for the linkage and stripped off the cheesy blue anodization. New ceramics were installed throughout, plus I ended up adding in a new slider hub and slider bushing. Then of coarse the Kbdd black blades. This thing tracks dead on. The polishing took the better part of an afternoon but was well worth it.
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Old 06-19-2012, 01:55 AM   #58 (permalink)
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OK AP. Back at it again. Your new 6s stretched heli is almost finished. And here are the pic by pic parts guides to help you along in the future should any mishap happen and you need new parts and an install guide. All I am waiting on is a new factory 500 belt. The two Pioneer belts I tried were both so twisted they couldn't hold a straight line coming down the extended boom. One was so bad it was twisted a full turn before straightening out before hitting the tail guide roller. Needless to say it was rubbing heavily on the inner boom surface and causing me some headaches. Problem was I could never see it all the way down the CF boom even lighted until I changed the boom over to a custom cut aluminum version. Then the inner boom lit up with a penlight and gave me the bad news.

So the first thing I did was to address that and the belt is on its way. I also dropped the tail drive gear on the Eflite upgrade set down to a 10t off a G5 setup.

Next, the new Helihaven 63mm feathering shafts showed up in the mail. These have his newest upgrades to them and will accept a full 10mm bolt penetration with the 3mm set bolts. The bolts I chose to use are a 170,00lb tensile strength button head version. So they fully clear the blade root for the new (again, thanks HH!) MsComposite 385mm Cf blades that also just showed up. And in that same postal delivery batch of boxes came your Rave 450 grips and thrust bearings.

So needless to say I got immediately busy. First thing I did was to tear off the old Tarot grips and pull off the grip pins. Then I drilled and tapped the new 2.5mm pin holes into the Rave grips. Their holes are only 2mm stock. The rest went like clockwork as I have done a few of these now. I installed the Tarot grip pins and they seated perfectly.

I lubed up the new feathering shaft and test fitted the new end bolts. I tried 3 different sizes but the 10mm ones were the best fit. Next I lubed up the thrust bearings, lubed the grip bearings also, and installed the grips. It took a few takes to get the exact grip spacers into place for that silky smooth right on the edge of tight feeling you want with grips. But your head is finished! I have to admit the Rave grips are the best rolling and tightest grips I have ever seen!

I also lubed up the new swash and cleaned up the new ball end pins and guide pin ends so none of the rotating link ends could get bound up by them.
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Old 06-23-2012, 06:11 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: spokane,washington
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Ancient Pete

This is the final version of your new Super B as you like to call it. She is finished!

I havent test flown it yet, but two days ago when I maidened it with the three bladed tail I wasn't as happy with its flying manners as I would want you to have. Basically the tail system wasn't making me happy. So, I pulled my new 4 blade system off my own heli and spent time modifying your heli so it would fit. I also installed the new Composite 385s that Helihaven sent over for you.

Hope you enjoy flying this!

For those that may see this thread, here is the sum up of the parts list.

CncHeli carbonfibre body with dual panelled upper body plates and the center servo mounted in the upper head area. Ceramics throughout with a few abec 5s here and there in the tail. Custom carbonfibre 500 skids with 550 shortened tubes. Fusano canopy w500 pin mod. Microheli main gears and customs on the tail drive. Modified cncheli polished swash. 4mm shortened main shaft. Customized Tarot head with Rave 450 grips. Helihaven 4mm x 63mm custom feathering shaft with 3 x 10mm ProTek 170,000lb tempered button head set bolts. Trueblood red dampeners. Composite 385mm blades and CF paddles. Custom boom with T500 boom supports. CF stab. Custom CF adjustable tail servo rod with secondary Quick UK delrin connectors on the tail. Helihaven VS2 raised tail with polished Cncheli 4 bladed tail rotor running ceramics. Kbdd 59mm blades.

The electronics package:
Ice50 esc, Scorp 2221-2010 6s motor w/ceramics and a 9t Rhino tempered pinion. Custom aluminum motor mount with reinforced CF bracing. Flymentor, Spektrum 7100 w/sat. Hs65 cyclics and a Futaba 9257 on the tail. Kds900avcs tail gyro. I actually liked the performance of this as well as my Quark. Turnigy 2200 6s Nano battery.

The pics should speak for themselves. This is one of the prettiest helis I have built for anyone. Thanks AP for the somewhat free reign to do what was needed to build your Super B. I hope you get years of enjoyment out of this.
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Old 06-23-2012, 10:49 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Pa , USA
Default Magnificent!!!!

Randy and Troy,

Yes, Magnificent and I'm not sure that even sufficently describes the creation you gentlmen have affected. I doubt the pictures fully convey the detail and mechanical supperiority that this example of your art form display.

The words Thank You fall short of conveying my deep appreciation for, in terms of the modern vernacular, this most wickedly awsome Helio.

Once it arrives here in Thailand, I may just give it center stage in my living room and sit and gaze at it for a month or so before I sumon sufficent testicular fortitude to actually spool her up....

God Bless as He has already..

Your friend in JC and RC,
Ancient Pete.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Luvmyhelis View Post
Ancient Pete

This is the final version of your new Super B as you like to call it. She is finished!

I havent test flown it yet, but two days ago when I maidened it with the three bladed tail I wasn't as happy with its flying manners as I would want you to have. Basically the tail system wasn't making me happy. So, I pulled my new 4 blade system off my own heli and spent time modifying your heli so it would fit. I also installed the new Composite 385s that Helihaven sent over for you.

Hope you enjoy flying this!

For those that may see this thread, here is the sum up of the parts list.

CncHeli carbonfibre body with dual panelled upper body plates and the center servo mounted in the upper head area. Ceramics throughout with a few abec 5s here and there in the tail. Custom carbonfibre 500 skids with 550 shortened tubes. Fusano canopy w500 pin mod. Microheli main gears and customs on the tail drive. Modified cncheli polished swash. 4mm shortened main shaft. Customized Tarot head with Rave 450 grips. Helihaven 4mm x 63mm custom feathering shaft with 3 x 10mm ProTek 170,000lb tempered button head set bolts. Trueblood red dampeners. Composite 385mm blades and CF paddles. Custom boom with T500 boom supports. CF stab. Custom CF adjustable tail servo rod with secondary Quick UK delrin connectors on the tail. Helihaven VS2 raised tail with polished Cncheli 4 bladed tail rotor running ceramics. Kbdd 59mm blades.

The electronics package:
Ice50 esc, Scorp 2221-2010 6s motor w/ceramics and a 9t Rhino tempered pinion. Custom aluminum motor mount with reinforced CF bracing. Flymentor, Spektrum 7100 w/sat. Hs65 cyclics and a Futaba 9257 on the tail. Kds900avcs tail gyro. I actually liked the performance of this as well as my Quark. Turnigy 2200 6s Nano battery.

The pics should speak for themselves. This is one of the prettiest helis I have built for anyone. Thanks AP for the somewhat free reign to do what was needed to build your Super B. I hope you get years of enjoyment out of this.
Ancient Pete is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
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