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Old 07-18-2012, 08:37 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default another AP firm that didnt get the memo

[ame]http://vimeo.com/45770095[/ame]

bets on how long till the FAA shuts them down?

btw there based in Phoenix AZ if some one wants to give them the heads up
http://www.birdsiproductions.com/

wow are they in for a surprise

"Birds Eye Productions is a Phoenix based production company that specializes in Aerial Photography and Videography. What makes us unique is the fact that we are not bound by the rules of the FAA because we don't use a full size helicopter. "

from there site .....
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:43 PM   #2 (permalink)
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What's the issue? I don't see where FAA would be involved.

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Old 07-18-2012, 08:44 PM   #3 (permalink)
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http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/...fm?newsid=6287
http://mi6films.com/2011/rc-helicopt...-airspace/687/

this ALL commercial use of sUAS are grounded till the NPRM

this is a letter being sent out to AP firms atm when they get caught
Quote:

Gentlemen-

I would appreciate the opportunity to speak with the person or persons in

your organization who oversee your unmanned aircraft operation. As a

courtesy to you and your organization, I would like to discuss the existing

prohibition of commercial operations of unmanned aircraft systems (UAS) in

the U.S. national airspace as well as the rule making efforts the FAA is

currently undertaking to provide for such operations in the future.

Please respond within 5 business days.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Kind regards,

Lance

R. Lance Nuckolls

Aviation Safety Inspector – Flight Operations

FAA Office of Aviation Safety

Flight Standards Service

Unmanned Aircraft Program Office (AFS-407)

470 L’Enfant Plaza STE 3200

Washington, DC 20024

202-385-4958

[email protected]

[email protected]

Lastly, contact the FAA representative directly who is in-charge (so to speak) about this issue and hear about it from the horses mouth:

Randy Willis

Senior Analyst

Unmanned Aircraft Systems Office (AJR-36)

FAA Headquarters

800 Independence Ave, SW

Washington, DC 20591

Ph: 202-267-8565

Fax: 202-267-5809

[email protected]

THE PERSON IN SOUTHER CALIFORNIA FIELD OFFICE WE HAVE TALKED WITH TOO IS

Name: Dennis Fogarty

Email: [email protected]

Phone Number:: 310 725-7212
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:47 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I know what your elaborating too, but could someone just put it in simple terms?

The FAA has somewhat recently (I believe) basically said no to the commercial use of drones? We can fly them, take pictures, etc, but not for profit. Am I wrong about this? The whole thing is under review until further notice?
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:49 PM   #5 (permalink)
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right you can do what ever you want "for fun" once you do "for profit" all bets are off
if you go to there web site you can clearly see they are selling there service

this firm is pretty new they opened up late apirl this year
and seem to think they are not subject to FAA rules (they are)
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:07 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elios000 View Post
right you can do what ever you want "for fun" once you do "for profit" all bets are off
if you go to there web site you can clearly see they are selling there service

this firm is pretty new they opened up late apirl this year
and seem to think they are not subject to FAA rules (they are)
FWIW, you won't be able to do "What you want to" even if you don't charge.

At a minimum you will have to follow AMA rules, even if you aren't AMA.

THis is reasonable. There are too may jerks out there willing to put a monster aircraft right over your head.

There isn't any such thing as common sense anymore.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:23 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahahn View Post
FWIW, you won't be able to do "What you want to" even if you don't charge.

At a minimum you will have to follow AMA rules, even if you aren't AMA.

THis is reasonable. There are too may jerks out there willing to put a monster aircraft right over your head.

There isn't any such thing as common sense anymore.
well you know what i mean :p
but yes in the US you have to still follow AMA rules
AP like this is legal most every where else atm just not in the US
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:35 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Would seem one potentially legal way around this is not to charge for the "Aerial" part, and just sell the photos. The fact that the picture was taken while attached to a drone is just a technicality. To be extra safe, have a different guy operating the camera then operating the aircraft. The photographer is just along for the "free ride". ;-)
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:52 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JesusFreak View Post
Would seem one potentially legal way around this is not to charge for the "Aerial" part, and just sell the photos. The fact that the picture was taken while attached to a drone is just a technicality. To be extra safe, have a different guy operating the camera then operating the aircraft. The photographer is just along for the "free ride". ;-)
No way its that easy to get around, any use of a drone that makes money (even indirectly) would be considered commercial.

Makes sense that they are tightening rules, there was an incident down here where some moron with a FPV plane flew close in behind a commercial passenger jet (on takeoff afaik). Close enough that their RC plane was blown out of the sky by the jet wash. If it had come in front of the plane and gone in an engine...

AFAIK anything outside LOS or above 200ft in AUS is treated much the same as a normal aircraft (as in it must carry radio etc. and follow the rules for various airspace). Pilots must also have suitable qualifications (AFAIK that is the theory portion of a normal pilots license and specific skills for the drone in question).
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:39 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Wow. That's pretty ironic. I know Lance Nuckolls. Met him several years ago when he came to our shop to certify our simulators. Nice guy and allegedly plays a mean blues guitar.

I'd wondered where he went within the FAA... I think I may call him....
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:45 PM   #11 (permalink)
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From the hobbyist's perspective, it seems like this might be FAA meddling or something like that, but from the perspective of a full scale pilot, this is a MAJOR concern. Just because you are good at flying RC, does not mean you are capable of safely operating in controlled airspace with real airplanes full of real people. A 700 size helicopter (or similar size RC device) would most likely destroy a jet engine if ingested. As much of a hassle as it may seem to RC hobbyists, the safety of the flying public must take priority.

What I think should happen is for the FAA to mandate a strict line of sight requirement for all RC aviation, and mandate that all models must be controlled via line of sight of the pilot. All FPV systems capable of broadcasting real-time video that enables the pilot to control the vehicle beyond line of sight must require the operator to hold a private RPV license. If you are using your RPV for commercial operations (i.e. anything you are being paid for) you must hold a commercial RPV license, and all RPV aircraft will have the licensee's identification information clearly displayed on the vehicle, similar to full size aircraft.

But we'll see what happens.
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Old 07-19-2012, 01:49 AM   #12 (permalink)
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if I'm not mistaken we are bound to the AMA rules whether or not we are a member, and I am sure that they have a strict rule of line of sight.. lemme look it up.

yeah I found it here LINK

it reads:
“SEE AND AVOID” GUIDANCE
A. General:
1. The primary means to avoid collisions between all aircraft flying within our
National Airspace System (NAS) is “See and Avoid.”
2. Vigilance must be maintained by each person operating an aircraft (whether
model or manned) so as to “see and avoid” other aircraft.
3. Model aircraft must avoid manned aircraft. Our privilege to fly model aircraft in
the NAS depends on our commitment to remain “well clear” of manned aircraft.
4. Simply avoiding an actual collision is not enough. A “near miss” is not
acceptable.
5. Unless flying at a mixed-use site where manned and model aircraft routinely share
airspace through their own site-specific rules, model aircraft must fly sufficiently far
away from manned aircraft so as not to create a collision hazard.
6. Model aircraft flying must not only be safe, it must be perceived to be safe by the
greater manned aviation community. Modelers must continually demonstrate their
respect for the safety of manned aircraft by remaining vigilant and well clear.
7. Whenever a potential conflict arises between model aircraft and manned aircraft,
the pilot of the model aircraft must always give way to the manned aircraft.
8. The pilot of a model aircraft must never assume the pilot of a manned aircraft can
see the model or will perform any maneuver to avoid the model’s flight path.
9. Visual Line of Sight is required by the Safety Code. It means that visual
contact with the aircraft must be maintained without enhancement other than by
corrective lenses prescribed for the model aircraft pilot. All RC flying must remain
clear of clouds smoke or any other obstruction to the line of sight.

10. Since the model aircraft pilot is exercising control by visual reference from a
location on the ground, in general the model aircraft should always descend and turn
to pass well below and away from the flight path of the manned aircraft. (Common
sense would dictate that if descending endangers other aircraft, persons or property on
the ground, other evasive action would be appropriate.)
11. A modeler should never place any consideration for the well being of the model
aircraft above the safety of manned aircraft. Maneuvering to avoid the conflict may
require that the model aircraft be sacrificed.
12. Free flight models should not be launched with relatively low altitude manned
aircraft in sight and downwind or headed downwind from the launch site.
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Old 07-19-2012, 01:57 AM   #13 (permalink)
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First Person View (FPV) Operations
1. An FPV-equipped model must be flown by two AMA members utilizing
a buddy-box system. The pilot in command must be on the primary
transmitter, maintain visual contact, and be prepared to assume
control in the event of a problem.
2. The operational range of the model is limited to the pilot in command’s
visual line of sight as defined in the Official AMA National Model
Aircraft Safety Code (see Radio Control, item 9).

3. The flight path of model operations shall be limited to the designated
flying site and approved overfly area.
4. The model weight and speed shall be limited to a maximum of 10
pounds and 60 miles per hour.
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Old 07-19-2012, 10:57 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JesusFreak View Post
Would seem one potentially legal way around this is not to charge for the "Aerial" part, and just sell the photos. The fact that the picture was taken while attached to a drone is just a technicality. To be extra safe, have a different guy operating the camera then operating the aircraft. The photographer is just along for the "free ride". ;-)
This is exactly what most of these AP firms do now...

On the AMA comment. Keep in mind that the AMA is basically a glorified insurance company, not a federal agency capable of enforcing anything (The AMA is NOT the FAA of RC models). Their rules only apply to coverage. If you don’t follow their rules, nobody is gonna come and slap you with a fine... you may get banned from all AMA fields, but you are not gonna get fined and have your equipment confiscated. The only way anybody is bound by AMA rules is if you want the coverage and would like to fly at AMA fields.

This is not saying I don’t follow their rules or disagree with what they are about, but saying that their rules are just guidelines to follow for safe operation of RC craft.

There is nothing illegal about flying an AP rig below 400ft AGL for recreational purposes… provided you are not in the vicinity of an airport… and even if you are, you may still fly, granted you got permission from the tower. If you use common sense and emphasize the safety factor, it can be done in a safe manner.
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Old 07-19-2012, 11:30 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Here's some interesting reading from a commercial aerial photography company. I'm in the golf industry and see either these guys or others like them (can't remember the name off hand) at the PGA Merchandise Show and the Golf Course Superintendent's show each year.

They usually have something like a Trex 700E with an AP rig in their booth.

http://www.skycamusa.com/legal.shtml
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Old 07-19-2012, 12:38 PM   #16 (permalink)
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notice they say demo only still for the US
wouldnt surprise me if the FAA required a commercial pilot license for commercial use of sUAS in the US once the NPRM is out

and that the UAS have an airworthiness cert
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Old 07-19-2012, 12:49 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Old 07-19-2012, 02:25 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I just sent an E-mail to Lance Nuckolls with a few questions and asking him to call me. Hopefully I'll hear back from him in the next few days and get a little better idea of what's happening without having to wade through the language of the NPRM.
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Old 07-19-2012, 02:55 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Legal or not, thats some nice looking video taken from a heli
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Old 07-19-2012, 04:49 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahahn View Post

At a minimum you will have to follow AMA rules, even if you aren't AMA.
Says who? Honestly, who would enforce that? TONS of people just buy N fly and do it in some random field or their backyard.
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