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Old 08-29-2012, 06:28 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default TDR speed fuselage project

OK! This started a few days ago as an attempt to touch up on the SFR fuselage and has with the help and input of all you distinguished members grown into something quite larger. I think a project involving a fuse and a lower frame will be the result!
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Old 08-29-2012, 06:45 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Just spent a few hours getting screen captures of speed flight videos to help estimate AOA for 200km/h speeds with the TDR. I plan to go thru them tomorrow and perhaps throw some into a CAD program where I can get an estimated angle measured to try and get closer to a starting point! Any one care to scan them? send a pm!
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Old 08-30-2012, 04:09 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Have had a cross Atlantic brainstorm session with Mark (mkovalcson) today on a few aspects to guide the project along (massive gratitude Bro) and I am now about to start the drawing on a lower frame and then a speed fuse to cover it all. I have one slight situation maybe one of you guys can help me with! Any one have a spare (not assembled) frame set that could scan if possible or just photograph against a white background? It would save me tearing down my perfectly running TDR or ordering one of each to get them into the CAD software.
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Old 08-30-2012, 04:40 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Maybe you can use this.
My scanner's bed is not long enough for the lower frame, so this one just as photo.
Please let me know, if you need a different format . . .
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Old 08-30-2012, 05:23 PM   #5 (permalink)
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ZT!! Massive thanks! That will do lovely for what I need to do right now! (Damn that was quick!!)
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Old 08-30-2012, 06:01 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I have not had time to draw new parts from the pics ZT supplied but thought I would share one of the conclusions Mark helped come up with. That being that a rough estimate of the sweet spot AoA for the TDR speeding is 35 degrees. In the pics below, the white line serves as a reference for the horizon so the fuse would have to be shaped for minimum drag at this angle. That will lead to some interesting shaping of the rear fuse!! I added one pic without any fuse outline in case anyone feels like printing one out and sketching a little to post back here! Pack dimensions will also be needed to shape the cano front and rear optimally. I guess TP would be the choice but what values I am uncertain of and hope one of you knowledgeable guys could chime in.
It seems the guys who built the speed Banshee really took Ralphs idea to heart when you look at it. I do think though that a few small tweaks could be made to refine the concept and there by squeeze a little more speed out of the set up
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Old 08-30-2012, 08:25 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Good work guys , I'm not convinced about the need for a full length tail fuse, obviously the canopy needs extending to fair in with the boom to extend laminar flow as far as possible. We need a wind tunnel !

Should be possible to dispense with the boom supports too.
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Old 08-30-2012, 08:35 PM   #8 (permalink)
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John, you wrote in the other thread recently that great minds think alike!! I am gasing myself up now but I have been of the same thoughts today!! I work with a guy who has a plastic manufacturing business and thought of making a wind tunnel large enough for the TDR out there! I just might! I have to study up on the SolidWorks CFD function to see of how much use it can be. Have also been thinking about the tail fuse a bit and I think it could be useful for drag reduction when at the sweet AoA since the tail boom stickin up increases the frontal area a fair bit (IMHO). I also figured some clever use of CF when molding the rear fuse could make up for the absence of the boom supports.
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Old 09-03-2012, 01:55 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I have now managed to produce a new mock up to try out different ideas for the lower frames and then the fuse. I will now move into Rhino to start working out how to model the fuse. I am quite sure I will need a few cracks at it before I get it right so might as well get moving!
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Old 09-03-2012, 01:58 PM   #10 (permalink)
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While I am at this, I plant to model just a speed cano and a fuse more akin to the SFR fuse. If interest justifies, molds can be made for all three!
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:48 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Got the Mechanics model roughly lined up in Rhino with a 35 degree lean and approximated a TLAR fuse outline. I will start working on a model topology with this outline, as whatever technique I get to work should be useable on all following!
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:50 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I think that looks great

Looking more and more like a custom canopy +/- fuze gonna be essential to try and instill some grace into the ugly duckling
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Old 09-03-2012, 03:02 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercuriell View Post
I think that looks great

Looking more and more like a custom canopy +/- fuze gonna be essential to try and instill some grace into the ugly duckling
John, you are sooo on the money!! The speed optimization totally kills the TDR look IMHO, but if it will make it go faster perhaps that is the price. Maybe a scorpion paint job will make it look more evil, it kinda reminds me of one under attack from behind!
Will definitely (even if just for practice) do a stand alone speed canopy, maybe with a duct in the mold and straight fuse. I guess there a pilots out there that want to go faster without taking those quite drastic measures!!

Edit: Forgot to say thank you for the kind remark!!
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:20 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Old 09-04-2012, 01:55 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I was thinking about a couple other things.

If the castle gear was made 5 degrees steeper, the tail boom assembly could be canted 5 degrees down ( since you are designing a new frame anyway )

What I think this would buy is two fold.

1. The tail is sticking right up high in a speed run and bringing it down will reduce drag.
2. A 700mm style tail boom could fit 800mm main blades, and this would reduce both weight and drag for that as well.

Assuming this will be using 95mm tail blades, the tail fin could be shortened, made solid for lower drag and be swept back at a higher angle.

In addition I was thinking about something from my waterski days. Waterskis have a fin for tracking which is adjustable fore/aft deeper and shallower. I won't go into all the details of setting up a fin for waterskiing, but there is also a small adjustable wing on the fin. The wing helps pull the tail of the ski deeper in the turn, but I was thinking that a small fin that was set to the AOA that you are aiming for could stabilize the heli at that angle and help hold it there during the run.

A properly sized fin wouldn't yank the tail, but rather gently pull the tail into the correct AOA. Obviously there would have to be some tweaking on the size and angle that works.
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Old 09-04-2012, 07:40 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Interesting idea Mark! Do you know who could cut such a gear? This would of course need a new upper frame that will need serious reverse engineering so as not to mess up the perfection in the original drive train. Some new considerations on pack placement, insertion and removal will also have to be made. I have now worked out atopology that will work for the Project, both fuse and canopy together or separate. The boom on the mechanics dummy is too long and I am now too tired to switch software and change it but you can get an idea! Now I can model a new idea to a brain storming level quite quickly so let the real fun begin. Of course landing gear ideas now have to be added also but will need some additional considerations to be made first.
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Old 09-04-2012, 08:14 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I had a place that used to produce Custom CNC routed UHML spindles for me, for about $2.50 each in lots of 250.

This is more complex, so I would expect a higher cost.

You are correct that the tolerances would need to be exact because if the castle gear / umbrella gear union is off, it will generate a lot of vibration.

However I think this solution is MUCH better than a universal joint like that other guy used. It will have less friction, weight, and other issues. I am curious how far down he moved his boom.

I actually have a pile of aluminum wings for different waters ski fins. At one point I almost put a fin calibration tool into production. As it was I only created a working prototype for myself and I never went further with it.

For the tail fin I would suggest the exact same arrangement as for a waterski. The wing is a two peice aluminum. A left and right side with two bolts. The front bolt goes through a hole that the wing can pilot on and the rear bolt would fit into a curved slot that allowed fine tuning of the angle of the wing. Given that these wings are readily available and not too expensive it might make sense to use something off the self and then just trim them a bit if they are too powerful at speed. There will be some drag associated with this as well so this needs to be a real benefit to be worth while otherwise it is a hinderance.
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Old 09-05-2012, 04:31 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Mark, can you illustrate your fin idea in some simple way so I am sure I understand it? I took a quick stab at the upper frame withe the boom angled down 5 degrees. Does not look so different at the frame and it gives a bit of clearance.
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Old 09-05-2012, 05:17 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donskills View Post
Interesting idea Mark! Do you know who could cut such a gear? This would of course need a new upper frame that will need serious reverse engineering so as not to mess up the perfection in the original drive train. Some new considerations on pack placement, insertion and removal will also have to be made. I have now worked out atopology that will work for the Project, both fuse and canopy together or separate. The boom on the mechanics dummy is too long and I am now too tired to switch software and change it but you can get an idea! Now I can model a new idea to a brain storming level quite quickly so let the real fun begin. Of course landing gear ideas now have to be added also but will need some additional considerations to be made first.
Aerodynamically your fuselage makes sense, but if one looks at the Banshee speed fuselage, you will notice that the bottom of the boom and fuselage ends in a sharp edge, this is to reduce drag in the 15 to 20 degrees nose down attitude at speed. If you look at the frontal view you will see what they did, the aerodynamically perfect inverted drop shape....

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Old 09-05-2012, 05:25 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Aerodynamically your fuselage makes sense, but if one looks at the Banshee speed fuselage, you will notice that the bottom of the boom and fuselage ends in a sharp edge, this is to reduce drag in the 15 to 20 degrees nose down attitude at speed. If you look at the frontal view you will see what they did, the aerodynamically perfect inverted drop shape....

Agree totally!! That is the beauty of the software I am using! My plan is to optimize the shape more for the 35 degree AoA lean and it is quite easy to at this stage! I am happy to hear you are of the opinion that the general shape makes sense as that is my first order of business! I have a feeling the tail section will be more similar to the speed banshee when profile is fine tuned.
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