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Old 01-25-2013, 05:07 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Just confirming I am on the right track

Following chadrg flight school method http://www.chadrg.com/flightschool/. Eventually want to be able to do nice tight even circles and 8s (forward and backward, upright and inverted - Lesson 4). Not overly concerned with tic-toc's or piro-flips or other intense 3D style maneuvers at this stage.

Currently practicing SLOW piro's (60s per rotation), in the sim with both 600 size and micro helis, both upright and inverted. (micros are hard to see and twitchy, 600 easier to see, but harder to keep in tight boundaries).

Upright, I can hold OK, wanders a bit (even with a mild gusty wind). Inverted piros, not a hope. 5s - 10s, fall out and have to flip back to normal, start again. In the sim I can slow time while learning inverted (with the view to gradually increase as I get more proficient). The question here is should I?

I am splitting my sim practice sessions soley between these two exercises (both CW and CCW piros as well), trying to get them almost perfect. I do not want to lose my upright orientations while familiarizing inverted.

Here are my questions:
1) Should I slow time while learning inverted in the sim (with the view to gradually increase as I get more proficient)?
2) Am I on the right track (basically ignoring FFF till orientations are instinctive in different heli sizes and upright/inverted)?
3) What do others think of to help them make correct adjustments in different orientations (upright and inverted)?
4) At 2 x 30 mins a day, every day (yes, I have that sort of patience) what would be a reasonable expectation that inverted slow piro will start "click"? (weeks? months?)
5) Is there any other things I should add/change in the sim training regime to help make me a better pilot?

I would like to have these reactions "natural" before risking real world heli damage.

btw, for some IRL time, I fly my 2 nano's doing slow upright maneuvers (slow circles, slow lazy 8s, upright piros CW & CCW and the occasional flip or flip with hold).
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Old 01-25-2013, 09:10 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Since nobody chipped in yet here is my view:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageAU View Post
Currently practicing SLOW piro's (60s per rotation), in the sim with both 600 size and micro helis, both upright and inverted. (micros are hard to see and twitchy, 600 easier to see, but harder to keep in tight boundaries).


Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageAU View Post
Upright, I can hold OK, wanders a bit (even with a mild gusty wind). Inverted piros, not a hope. 5s - 10s, fall out and have to flip back to normal, start again. In the sim I can slow time while learning inverted (with the view to gradually increase as I get more proficient). The question here is should I?
Yes. Slow it down, get it under your fingers (thumbs?) and increase speed if you feel comfortable. Idea is to learn, not to make it harder for yourself. I learn everything on the sim at 50-60% of the speed with 600 size heli.

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Originally Posted by ArchmageAU View Post
I am splitting my sim practice sessions soley between these two exercises (both CW and CCW piros as well), trying to get them almost perfect. I do not want to lose my upright orientations while familiarizing inverted.
I wish many others would follow what you're doing. I wish I did the same. Unfortunately nobody at the field I fly had similar tip for me - they all said 'shut up and fly'... and for last 6 years they progressed very, very little. It is shame seeing new flyers following their footsteps I did the same for first 3-4 years - and only last 2-3, then I started doing what you are I stopped crashing and started learning! So well done!

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1) Should I slow time while learning inverted in the sim (with the view to gradually increase as I get more proficient)?
I think yes. Even to 30% if that makes difference. I go to start of learning piro flips just by doing so. Slow it down, learn how not to crash inverted, and then increase it somewhat...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageAU View Post
2) Am I on the right track (basically ignoring FFF till orientations are instinctive in different heli sizes and upright/inverted)?
Yes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageAU View Post
3) What do others think of to help them make correct adjustments in different orientations (upright and inverted)?
From my perspective you're doing everything 100% correctly. Just continue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageAU View Post
4) At 2 x 30 mins a day, every day (yes, I have that sort of patience) what would be a reasonable expectation that inverted slow piro will start "click"? (weeks? months?)
Weeks. Depending how old are you and how quickly you learn (or how unlike me you are) I bet in less than a month!

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Originally Posted by ArchmageAU View Post
5) Is there any other things I should add/change in the sim training regime to help make me a better pilot?
At this point... I don't think so! (as you could have suspected )

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageAU View Post
btw, for some IRL time, I fly my 2 nano's doing slow upright maneuvers (slow circles, slow lazy 8s, upright piros CW & CCW and the occasional flip or flip with hold).
Yes. Give it another couple of weeks of slow pirouettes in sim (inverted) and you'll be able to do them with your micros.

I think we all here should take you as an example how things should be done!

Actually I do have an idea if you agree: start new thread:

"Learning to fly ArchmageAU"

and record everything you've done so far - when you get which heli, when you started doing sim and how often, when you changed your routine using it, what did you practice and how - so we can point finger to that thread and say: this is how things are supposed to be done!

So one more time
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Old 01-25-2013, 01:19 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Good reply. Alot of people I met want to be a skilled 3d pilot, but won't take the time to practice the fundamentals. But yea, absolutely on the right track .

One trick to holding piro's is to pick points while it is turning. Tail in and nose in are obviously the easiest, then eventually you'll be able to correct side in as well. That's how I learned my piro funnels. I would correct nose-first and tail-first, and while it was piro'ing to side-first, I would just let it go until the nose or tail came back around. The same thing can be done with any piro move. Pick certain points to correct at, then eventually you will be able to correct at any point.

With all of your good practice, I would suggest one more thing. Take some time at the end of your sim practice and just beat it around. Take the control skills you are using and put them to the test. Watch some videos of pros, and see if you can emulate the moves. If you've been practicing piros for awhile, you may be surprised how much control you actually have.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:35 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Thanks for the affirmations clicky and gitbse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clicky View Post
Since nobody chipped in yet here is my view:
Actually I do have an idea if you agree: start new thread:

"Learning to fly ArchmageAU"

and record everything you've done so far - when you get which heli, when you started doing sim and how often, when you changed your routine using it, what did you practice and how - so we can point finger to that thread and say: this is how things are supposed to be done!
I already keep a log of IRL flights, so I will start to do the same with the sim. I will keep notes on the day, time, seesion length, heli type, type of training, % of real time speed, crashes and notes. I will try to post the results back to this thread each week.

I have noticed, that in most endeavors, the most successful are those that record what is happening, review results and adjust accordingly.

Let the fun begin.
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Old 01-27-2013, 03:05 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I already keep a log of IRL flights, so I will start to do the same with the sim. I will keep notes on the day, time, seesion length, heli type, type of training, % of real time speed, crashes and notes. I will try to post the results back to this thread each week.

I have noticed, that in most endeavors, the most successful are those that record what is happening, review results and adjust accordingly.

Let the fun begin.
LOL - I didn't mean that detailed, but something more general like weekly or monthly progress report (and what have you been doing). But don't let me put you off of more detailed record you planned!

"I already keep a log of IRL flights"

BTW that's another interesting thing. Guy who got me to start learning how to fly did the same so I started that as well... I already have three full books from previous years. I am doing it mostly because of batteries (log battery flight no and heli flight no + time I flew and very short description what kind of mode I flew it in - normal or stunt, lower or higher hs - and mAh I returned to battery when recharged it afterwards).

And I stopped doing it for micros - first mCP-X and never even started one for nano nor 130X... From that I know that I flew Mini Titan (in one form or another) around 1400 flights so far, and Protos around 400 since I started count... Not much as I am mostly Sunday flyer (work + family, etc)
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Old 01-27-2013, 04:59 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Just confirming I am on the right track

You are absolutely on the right track. I wish more people took the time too practice the way you do.
Slowing down the sim is fine. You first need to learn what stick movements to make. If you can do them perfect on slow speed, you just slowly increase the speed until you are at 100% speed.

I spend half a year learning to hover and then just trying things way above my league. Then somebody told me about the importance of the basics and I started focusing on them. Almost a year later I fly better as guys that started flying months before me.

Just keep this up and you won't recognize yourself back in a year.


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Old 02-03-2013, 09:05 AM   #7 (permalink)
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so far all the answers have been encouraging and I whole heartedly agree with all of them, I had a similar approach to you but nowhere near as organized, I started flying planks many years ago but had to layoff flying for a few years(8) what with moving and family etc. so I practiced on the sim, not a lot , just for fun, about 2 years ago I got my first heli, and training gear and set off, I got most of the upright orientations in a couple of weekends, and lost the training gear, didn't really think much about the sim until I wanted to try inverted, I gave it a go irl and crashed almost instantly, that's when I started on the sim, about 30 mins a day all orientations, and it really helped, next time I tried it I had much more confidence and didn't crash, 2 years later and everytime I go out flying I do at least one battery just flying all orientations before moving on to other things I like to practice,
now I still practice with the sim but more advanced manoeuvers, although the sim is invaluable as a learning tool I still find real life different as there are other things to contend with, keep up the good work , keep practicing and try to transfer everything that you learn in the sim to rl
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Old 02-03-2013, 04:14 PM   #8 (permalink)
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so far all the answers have been encouraging and I whole heartedly agree with all of them, I had a similar approach to you but nowhere near as organized
...
keep practicing and try to transfer everything that you learn in the sim to rl
Thank you. I will attempt to remain as organised.

Status update: 1 week in. 27 15min hover orientation sessions. Approximately 1/2 inverted. Also 2+hours spread over the week practicing tight banked upright circles (both CW and CCW).

Wow! What a difference.

IRL with nano, can hover all upright orientations (including slow piro CW or CWW) in a 4ftx4ft area without any fighting for control. Nano is in UI and 100% throttle. In fact I feel I need to reduce my expo from 100/25 because I am chasing corrections.

Inverted in sim is progressing, but slower than hoped. Have increased the speed for inverted hover to 100%, but taken out automatic rudder. Trying to get stable 100% nose-in and tail-in inverted, then will add 1min pivot using automatic rudder.

Plan for this week is to reduce the upright hover to 1x15min session per day and increase inverted hover to 3x15min sessions per day. Also the 1x15min upright session is with a 130X instead of 1 600X as it is more "squirrely" and harder to see (and one of my prospective next IRL purchases).

Other plan is to continue the untimed tight banked circle practice but start working on 8s as my few attempts to transition between circles have been laughable.

I will kick off a thread on "internal dialogue", as I seem to habitually correct inverted F/B (nose/tail) incorrectly.

Another finding was that I was only correcting 1 direction at a time (F/B or L/R). Now consciously working on doing both simultaneously (in upright).
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Old 02-09-2013, 07:34 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Another week has now flown by. Status update.

Up to 52 x 15 min sessions now. Last session was Inverted CW at 100% speed. Only out of area 3 times in the 15 mins! This is further than I ever expected in this time frame. 2 weeks ago, the same inverted session at 50% speed went out of area 7 times.

I also had an "epiphany" this week and some of the upright flying became "automatic" (There is no spoon). Can now do upright tight banked circles and 8s (all directions) - even some wonky funnels (tail-up and tail-down) including transitions to make funnel 8s (tail-up to tail-down).

Still a loooooong way to go. Inverted slow piro's take A LOT of concentration and I often need to fix an incorrect correction. I want to get inverted to automatic and be able to do tail first circles and piro circles.

To recap on how a prio session works. I am flying in Heli-X sim a Logo 600 in idle up with 100/20 DR/expo using hover training with 1 min rotation and only giving control of the rudder to Heli-X (I must do collective and cyclic). By making Heli-X do rudder, the heli continually turns, I cannot stop, slow or rush orientations. The area is only 10m diameter (ground target turns from green to red if COG outside 5m diameter). If the COG of the heli leaves this circle it will crash. The circle is only on the ground, so if too high, cannot see target and liable to leave it and crash (so collective control critical). Ground strike is crash. Ground effect does bounce the heli around. Lateral speed introduces transitional lift (often cause of too much height, losing ground parameters, leaving area and crash). Reset puts the heli's at 2m, level (upright or inverted) at the nominated tail direction spooled up to head speed at last crash.

IRL, I reduced the nano cyclic expo to 100/15. Was able to easily do CW and CCW piros in a 2m x 2m area without ever losing control, even able to fly slow 2m diameter circles CW and CCW in complete control.

Am looking to get a 130X within 2 weeks. Want to be able to hover the nano's inverted outside for 1 min continuous and fly upright circles and 8s before taking delivery.

When I compare to last week, this week has been another big step forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageAU View Post
Status update: 1 week in. 27 15min hover orientation sessions. Approximately 1/2 inverted. Also 2+ hours spread over the week practicing tight banked upright circles (both CW and CCW).
...
Other plan is to continue the untimed tight banked circle practice but start working on 8s as my few attempts to transition between circles have been laughable.
Will continue to practice and report.
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Old 02-12-2013, 05:38 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Not that this means much to most of you, but I just had a successful 15min invert hover while slow piro'ing in the sim without moving out of the circle (at full speed).

No longer thinking corrections, just doing. Occasionally get it wrong, but most of the time right. Collective management to maintain constant height getting better too.

Still more to do.

Just wanted to share.
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:19 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Nice when practice pays off, isn't it?

Being able to do that inverted so easily should make flying around seem really easy for you now.

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Old 02-12-2013, 06:54 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gitbse View Post

Nice when practice pays off, isn't it?

Being able to do that inverted so easily should make flying around seem really easy for you now.

Thank you. And yes, flying is getting much easier. Starting to do backward and inverted circles in the sim too now.

Will keep up the hovers till I can keep them always on the spot, then will add wind. Started a good habit, may as well keep it.

IRL inverted hovers are now MUCH better. Can fly upright circles and 8's with the nano in a 15m x 15m forest clearing.

All this from a 40 something who only started flying CP 3 months ago (mid-Nov).

btw, gitbse, I really appreciate your comments. It' like help from "above". From what I have seen on HF, your flying skills are at where I want to be at in a few years.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:01 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Well done!

How about nano IRL inverted? Did you try it? I am very curious to hear you say sim practice translates quite nicely to real helicopter. Good thing about nano is that there's very little chance you'll be able to damage it in the try.
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Old 02-13-2013, 05:53 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clicky View Post
Well done!

How about nano IRL inverted? Did you try it? I am very curious to hear you say sim practice translates quite nicely to real helicopter. Good thing about nano is that there's very little chance you'll be able to damage it in the try.
Too windy outside today to try. Hopefully in the morning. I have hovered the nano inverted for about 20s outside a few days ago.

Not enough area to flip and stabilise in the lounge room at current skill level (tried 3 times this evening, no damage to helis or house ).

Upright piros, circles and 8s translated to IRL pretty well.

Current aim is for a 1min+ inverted hover with nano. Personal reward for this is a 130X (not tempted to fly 130X inside, where as I would probably do too much indoor damage with an mCPX BL by giving in to temptation).


Will keep you all posted.
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:20 AM   #15 (permalink)
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I for one will point other newcomers to this topic. Great read! I am a firm believer in non complex drills turning into more complex ones and more complex flying and the importance of working on perfecting what seems mundane and non exciting at first. Keep it up
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Old 02-13-2013, 08:45 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Definitively don't try it on windy day and when you don't feel comfortable enough.

Also, even though nano is closest heli for indoor - it is still handful. I do not consider myself expert by any means - I barely managed to flip nano inverted in my kitchen (removed dining table - 3x3m space) and sweat trying to do slow piros (slow ended up ... ahm... two a battery!). And flipping and doing all was 1 to 3 (one crash in three successes - but started with far worse odds like 2 crashes in one success).

I asked that only for you to see how close these two things are. The moment you forget(*) about fear you'll see it is same as on sim. Muscle memory works perfectly in that case!

(*) HHGTTG ref: if you forget to fall you can even learn how to fly! (pun intended)

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Too windy outside today to try. Hopefully in the morning. I have hovered the nano inverted for about 20s outside a few days ago.

Not enough area to flip and stabilise in the lounge room at current skill level (tried 3 times this evening, no damage to helis or house ).

Upright piros, circles and 8s translated to IRL pretty well.

Current aim is for a 1min+ inverted hover with nano. Personal reward for this is a 130X (not tempted to fly 130X inside, where as I would probably do too much indoor damage with an mCPX BL by giving in to temptation).


Will keep you all posted.
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:31 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageAU View Post
Too windy outside today to try. Hopefully in the morning.
...

Current aim is for a 1min+ inverted hover with nano. Personal reward for this is a 130X ....
Managed to get a single 1min inverted hover with the nano this morning.

Only 1 full 1min success in 3 flights (before the rain came). So yes. Sim skills do translate to IRL. (A nano is far more squirrelly than a FBL 600 though).


Consequently, I am getting a 130X.

** Edit ** Lightning does strike twice. Flew another battery during lunch and managed a 2 min invert hover as well as controlled flip and land.

Much more to practice.

Need to set a new goal for a 450X
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Old 02-14-2013, 02:43 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Congratz! Be sure to read the Blade 130X stickies if you haven't, there is lots of information there.
You'll love the 130X, it's the only Blade micro I have that holds the tail when I fly 3d.


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Old 02-14-2013, 04:16 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Congratz! Be sure to read the Blade 130X stickies if you haven't, there is lots of information there.
You'll love the 130X, it's the only Blade micro I have that holds the tail when I fly 3d.
I've got it, but havn't flown it yet. Have been through the 130X stickies. Before flying, will add the extra pushrod guide, check the fit of the tail drive gears, A->D and check the trim on the 3 in 1. Also swapping to HP blades from bullets. Have spare boom supports, grommets and bearings to tighten and pack things as required. Treating it more like a build than a BNF and taking advice from the experiences of other "freaks".

I'm sure you will see more in the 130X forum if I have trouble. Will try keep the rest of this thread for sim progress (and transition to IRL).

btw, another incident free inverted hover session in the sim again today.

It's been a great day so far.
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Old 02-17-2013, 01:25 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Little tip which might improve your skills quickly.

Imagine a circle in front of you in the sim or use a flightfield where a circle ( or something looking like it ) is on the ground.

Now do the clock hovering excercise.

Start tail in hover to the middle of the " clock " back to the origin.
Sidewards 45 degree, to the middle, and back again.
Repeat until you are 360 around

Then fly a circle backwards exact height and diameter this direction, then a nose in circuit, then a backward circle, then a tail in circle.
Then the same the other way arround the clock.

When youre done do the same inverted.

After that you can do piroetting around by just changing towards the next at each 45 orientation.

When you learn it that way, there is no chance that you loose orientation in real life piros.
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