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Old 11-20-2007, 03:56 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Better safe than sorry. I know it should not spool up, but Lithium already had this happen to him, and I'd hate to see it happen to anyone else...
Well.... I knew it was going to spool up, just didn't know I wasn't suposed to in mode #1. The manual said full throttle so I did it. The heli jumped and spun so quick it was in the blink of an eye! Scared the hell out of me and thought I broke something. I'm sure the one-way bearing was hating life. Thankfully I had not made a flat spot on the motor shaft so the pinion grub screw broke loose. Made a nice ring around the shaft to show me where to make the flat spot. However their are better methods than this to mark were you need to make the flat spot.

If I tried that again I'm SURE something would give. Gave me a new respect as to how powerful these NEU motors are.
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Old 11-20-2007, 03:58 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Rjohn, it's simple, instead of a throttle curve, you set a straight line throttle percentage. The higher the "throttle line" the higher the headspeed. I suggest that you do use the stick setup method described here initially, (as opposed to the prog card) at least to set mode 4. This teaches the ESC what your particular radios' zero and 100% throttle settings look like (I think), assuming you set it up per Shawn's instructions...

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Old 11-20-2007, 03:59 PM   #23 (permalink)
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You really don't need a program card.
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Old 11-20-2007, 04:12 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by LITHIUMSTATIC View Post
You really don't need a program card.
As has been stated elsewhere, this is wholly true. The only use is decreasing the spool up time, which just isn't worth it. I've always figured it wasn't worth risking my beautiful HB gears to save 2-6 seconds. I just use those to remember to start my timer instead

John
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Old 11-20-2007, 04:13 PM   #25 (permalink)
 

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So the the gov mode in the radio is similarly set.
Things such as: Timing, Lipo cut off, Frequency, Gov gain, Spool up, Soft start, Current sensitivity can be set with the stick. They just use funny words like mode to describe setup state?

I will re-read these threads and instructions, then ask questions from there.
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Old 11-20-2007, 04:18 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Power jazz needs the prog card, you cannot program it with the stick (there is no jumper on it to put into prog mode)
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Old 11-20-2007, 04:33 PM   #27 (permalink)
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One thing I read about the governor mode and why you want a flat throttle curve is because of the closed loop control that it uses to maintain constant HS. When the ESC sees a constant throttle position for a period of time it goes into feedback mode to try and maintain constant HS. When you change the throttle position from say idle 1 (~75%) to idle 2 (~85%), the governor switches off to make the transition and then goes back into feedback mode at idle 2. This means that if you do not have a flat line throttle curve, the ESC will not stay in governor mode. I'm sure there is some amount the TC can vary before it comes out of governor mode but I couldn't find any percentages.

Bruce
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Old 11-20-2007, 04:34 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Power jazz needs the prog card, you cannot program it with the stick (there is no jumper on it to put into prog mode)

Oz is right. With the prog box, it's a completely diferent ballpark. The following prog card setup description is from a PM reply I sent to a helifreak mate that was having trouble using it. The kontronik prog card instructions are very poor. Anyway, I thought it would be useful to include this in Shawn's excellent thread so guys can refer to both.

This is the easiest method I've found to use the prog card and you do not require firing up your tx or rx to do it;

-make sure the motor/esc leads are connected
-connect your flight pack to the esc
-connect the esc/rx lead to the card, marked esc
-connect a 4.8v rx battery to the card, marked battery.

Now all the card lights should flash and the items that are already programed (? default ones) will light up solid.

-use the select button to move the flashing light until it is over one of the options you want to select then hold the button for a couple of seconds and it will select this option and go from a flashing light to a solid one.

The options I selected were;
brake off, bat type lipo, cutoff at 3.0v, startup smooth (may not turn on if the esc is already in gov mode), timing at auto rpm control (gov) on, startup time 12 seconds, stick positions auto(APM).

After this the options that you have selected should all be solid red lights (don't worry about a flashing one). Diconnect, in order, the esc/rx lead, rx battery, and esc flight pack leads and you are done.

My startup procedure is;

- startup in throttle hold (0% throttle) mid-stick (0 deg pitch).
-flick throttle hold off and startup mid-stick (~zero pitch) in idle-up 2 with a flat 100% throttle curve (and usual idle-up pitch curve, -12-0-12 deg).
- hold ~zero pitch until the heli spools up (12 sec) and give it another few seconds to stabilize.
-flick it into idle-up1 with a flat 80% throttle curve. The headspeed should drop a bit and then stabilize.
-Check that this is the headspeed you want. You may need to raise or lower this idle-up setting to get the hs you want.

So, everytime I spool-up, I do the same thing. Hook up packs in TH on, go to throttle mid-stick, flick TH off and go to 100% flatline Idle-up 2 and let it spool-up and stablilize, then flick it into idle-up 1 and let the hs drop and stablize, then go fly!

If you make a mistake and initially flick it into Idle-1 first, it will take this as the high setting. You then need to shut it down, unplug your packs, and restart,

Anyway, that's what I do.

Some guys are using 'fixed' instead of Auto(APM) but I have not found this to work very well for me. This requires you to plug the card battery plug to a lead (which you may need to make. since both ends need to be servo end-type plugs) that goes to your rx throttle channel and you need to fire up the rx from it's battery source and your tx need to be on in normal mode, low stick (using a 0-50-100 throttle curve). You then go throught the same select process but when you get to the stick position option and select 'fixed'. Then the light will flash over the low position. Make sure that your throttle stick is in low position (0%) and hold the select button. Then it flashes over the high throttle position. Move your throttle stick to high (100%) position and and then hold the select button until it goes solid. Unplug everything and you are done. If this works properly for you, you should be able to select say your 80% flatline curve right off the bat and it should spool up and stabilise at this lower hs all by itself. That is you will not need to start up at 100% each time. Works for some, so you might want to try it, I just did not find that the hs's were consistant (80% gov setting headspeed's could vary up to 150 rpm) but I think that this is because I'm using about 4 generations of FP evo cells that all have slightly different voltages. Funny, but when I use the APM method the 80% setting hardly vary's more than 20 rpm between different packs.

Anyway, hope this helps and good luck!

Cheers,
Tom C
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Old 11-20-2007, 04:55 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I started working on a table last night that lists out all the modes on the Jazz and the defaults listed for each of those modes. As you can see, the ESC can only be set into one of the exclusive modes listed and the inclusive mode (7 & 9) can be used to modify the defaults of the chosen mode. Check out mode 8 which allows forward/reverse direction of the motor on a car with brake in the middle.

http://brucewsb.s3.amazonaws.com/Fil...zESCModes.html

This is a work in progress and I gleaned it from the Jazz manual which is very poorly written and not consistent in describing the defaults between the different modes. Tonight I'll try to get more finalized and get better descriptions and more written below the table.


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Old 11-20-2007, 05:12 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Thanks Bruce, it seems like a nice start. After we get the programming procedure sorted it would be nice to add it to the same page for a complete english guide.

I see a trend here. Kontronic manual is ordinary (German) Vbar manual,ordinary (german). Maybe they need to get Ralf from Mikado to rewrite them.
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Old 11-20-2007, 06:33 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJohn View Post
So the the gov mode in the radio is similarly set.
Things such as: Timing, Lipo cut off, Frequency, Gov gain, Spool up, Soft start, Current sensitivity can be set with the stick. They just use funny words like mode to describe setup state?

I will re-read these threads and instructions, then ask questions from there.

Mode 4 just sets the defaults Kontronik thinks you would most likely want for a heli, so no brake, soft spoolup, and governor mode are all set in mode 4 automatically. If you want to play with the settings more than that you need the prog card, but frankly I have never seen a need for tweaking this ESC. Set mode 4, and it just plain works. It's not a CC after all

-Fog
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Old 11-20-2007, 06:38 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fogger View Post
Mode 4 just sets the defaults Kontronik thinks you would most likely want for a heli, so no brake, soft spoolup, and governor mode are all set in mode 4 automatically. If you want to play with the settings more than that you need the prog card, but frankly I have never seen a need for tweaking this ESC. Set mode 4, and it just plain works. It's not a CC after all

-Fog
Couldn't agree more.
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Old 11-20-2007, 06:39 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I am with Fog, all my Jazzi get the mode 4 setting and thats it.
Throttle curves are norm, 0, 75,75,75,75 get the motor started and rotor headspeed settled st1= 80,80,80,80,80 for most flying and
st2 = 95,95,95,95,95

That works for me and has done for ages.
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Old 11-20-2007, 07:09 PM   #34 (permalink)
 

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The Vstabi jumpers are double ended female, so I can use an extra one to program fixed points. I have run throught the lights on the card to see how it works. Got to go to dinner so I will program this thing later.
Thanks for the help everyone.
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Old 11-20-2007, 11:54 PM   #35 (permalink)
 

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I was able to program the Power Jazz using the card and the Vstabi jumper plus a servo extension. It seems to have a nice soft start and the gov is working. The active RPM control selection removed the soft start choice from the progammer. Othewise counting little red LEDs wasn't too bad. Weather permitting I'll give it whirl tommorrow, as well as the new Maniac 623s.

Last edited by Flybar-less; 11-21-2007 at 03:18 AM.. Reason: read instructions again
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Old 11-21-2007, 11:44 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Do you need to set the throttle curve linear from 0-100% when programing governor? Or do you need to set the value on the curve that you are going to use in gov mod? Ex. 90% flat.
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Old 11-21-2007, 11:52 AM   #37 (permalink)
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You need a 0-100 linear throttle curve (it's really a line though ) for changing the esc settings (programming) and then you need a flat linear throttle "line" 85-85-85(etc) to set the headspeed, assuming you use mode 4 (heli mode, with governor enabled). Personally I only fly in one flight mode, Idle up 2, at 85% across. The other flight modes are 0 throttle flat line to prevent spoolup.

-Fog
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Old 11-21-2007, 05:32 PM   #38 (permalink)
 

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Default First experience with Power Jazz

Last night I wired up the Power Jazz, programmed it with the card, and checked motor direction on a spare Neu motor. Then I installed it in my heli, blades off, and fired it up. I had to change 2 motor wires because it was running backwards. After changing the wires I ran it up, went through the flight modes, everthing looked good.

This morning I plugged in the batteries and it wouldn't arm. Checked everything over and it armed after a few minutes, then began to spool up on it's own with the stick down. So I flew it and it worked great.

This afternoon I rechecked programming, everthing was correct. So I re-programmed it, but this time both "start" lights stayed lit, and the motor ran backwards. Re-Programmed it again with different sequence, the fast start light was off this time and the motor runs the correct direction. No problems with spooling up on it's own.

I learned that the Power Jazz does not like more then 8 volts, or the programmer.
When the 2S voltage drops below 8 volts everthing is cool, above 8 volts, unpredictable.

So I now have a happy Power Jazz with an Align diode drop!
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Old 11-21-2007, 05:35 PM   #39 (permalink)
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I heard they can be moded to make them lighter. You know anything about it?
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Old 11-21-2007, 05:50 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJohn View Post
Last night I wired up the Power Jazz, programmed it with the card, and checked motor direction on a spare Neu motor. Then I installed it in my heli, blades off, and fired it up. I had to change 2 motor wires because it was running backwards. After changing the wires I ran it up, went through the flight modes, everthing looked good.

This morning I plugged in the batteries and it wouldn't arm. Checked everything over and it armed after a few minutes, then began to spool up on it's own with the stick down. So I flew it and it worked great.

This afternoon I rechecked programming, everthing was correct. So I re-programmed it, but this time both "start" lights stayed lit, and the motor ran backwards. Re-Programmed it again with different sequence, the fast start light was off this time and the motor runs the correct direction. No problems with spooling up on it's own.

I learned that the Power Jazz does not like more then 8 volts, or the programmer.
When the 2S voltage drops below 8 volts everthing is cool, above 8 volts, unpredictable.

So I now have a happy Power Jazz with an Align diode drop!

did you use a 2s lipo pack to power the progcard and radio portion of the PJ ?
This is an interesting development. Shaun has a qestion in to Kontronic about this and CC replied to my question about their esc's(CC is fine on 2s).

So far i have only used 4cell reciever packs to do the programming card stuff and have not run any esc with more than 6v signal input.
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