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Old 12-03-2007, 08:49 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Indeed. It would be pretty easy to whip up a web service that does it all.
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Old 12-03-2007, 09:00 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I saw a few web page calculators but wanted to try something different. They are more portable but since I had all the tools to quickly create a small app it was more fun. Since C++ coding is more my style than html/javascript I figured it would also be easier. One of the web interfaces I've seen ( http://dhrc.rchomepage.com/calc.htm && http://dhrc.rchomepage.com/calcAdvanced.htm ) has a lot of tweakables but the page is just overloaded with too much information.

Once I dig a little further, I'll see if I want to take this to the next step.
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Old 12-03-2007, 09:33 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I meant a web service for the motor database.
could also do a heli database too (gearing options, empty weight, etc)
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Old 12-03-2007, 09:59 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Wow Bruce what a fantastic contribution man! GJ. I will wait on the side lines till you get all your mods and what not done, cool idea!
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Old 12-03-2007, 10:21 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceW View Post
I saw a few web page calculators but wanted to try something different. They are more portable but since I had all the tools to quickly create a small app it was more fun. Since C++ coding is more my style than html/javascript I figured it would also be easier. One of the web interfaces I've seen ( http://dhrc.rchomepage.com/calc.htm && http://dhrc.rchomepage.com/calcAdvanced.htm ) has a lot of tweakables but the page is just overloaded with too much information.

Once I dig a little further, I'll see if I want to take this to the next step.
Those pages definitely hit the "hideous interface" mark. I do like the idea of basic vs. advanced, so keep up the good work.

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Old 12-03-2007, 11:02 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesotron99 View Post
I meant a web service for the motor database.
could also do a heli database too (gearing options, empty weight, etc)
Yep, using all the resources of the online community to fill in the data and keep it updated would be definite plus. I'll look at creating a page with MySQL running behind the scenes to collect the data. If we can do that and export it as XML, I can add an import to the app to keep it up to date. Most of the web sites I've seen that store motor data seem out of date since they are static.

One thing about native applications is they are fast, have a more flexible UI, and work even when the internet is down.:wink:
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Old 12-03-2007, 11:34 PM   #27 (permalink)
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how about for us MAC guys!!
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Old 12-03-2007, 11:42 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
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how about for us MAC guys!!
I'll try to find some time over the holidays to start a Mac port.
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Old 12-04-2007, 12:36 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Nice start. I strongly support the idea (similar to MrMel's) of keeping the low/med/high load caclulations/results. I would like to have access to the definitions of low/med/high per-cell voltage for each cell chemistry, maybe in an Options or Settings tab.

FYI attached are some spreadsheets that I use. One advantage they have over the online tools (or your application IMO) is that you can see at a glance a whole range of setups. The user can enter thresholds to make it easy to spot which setups will work and which won't. You could consider adding min/max target headspeed as user-configurable parameter (defaults can be loaded along with the heli selection) and colouring the headspeed values if the get close (eg orange within 10%) or exceed (red over 5%) the thresholds.

Also attached is a large table of motor parameters. If you want to consider calculating power/current/load/headspeed the complex way you will need a lot of this kind of data. In my opinion KISS is the best plan. Estimating headspeed based on the basic parameters you already have (with some tweaking) is good enough for the purpose, which is usually to decide on a particular motor/battery/gearing combination. You only have to take a brief look at some of the more theoretical tools to discover just how complex it can quickly become to try to become even slightly more accurate.

I would strongly recommend you keep the metadata external to the application. Then it can be used by a variety of clients, updated by end users and be generally more useful. Simply load and parse the data files at runtime. I would suggest one data file each as follows (* indicates a mandatory field):
helis = *brand, *model, variant, *main gear teeth, main gear type (straight/helical/herringbone), module/pitch, min rpm, max rpm, pinion bore, pinion range
motors = *brand, *model, *KV, diameter, length, weight, shaft diameter, Io, Ri, max rpm, popular heli list

XML could be good but CSV will be better for anyone that might want to use the data in a spreadsheet.

Here is some extra data you might find useful:
Code:
Heli            Main gear   Min RPM   Max RPM
------------    ---------   -------   -------
HDX500             94         1800      2800
Lepton             94         1800      3000
QJ EP8v2          120         1800      2600
TRex450           150         2400      3200
TRex500           160         2100      2800
TRex600           170         1800      2200
and this summary from here: http://www.archeli.com.au/cobra/showthread.php?t=111168

Code:
------------------------  -------------  -----------------------------  ---------- 
Heli                      Std main gear  Pinion Module                  Std pinion 
Model                     teeth          or Pitch                       bore (mm) 
------------------------  -------------  -----------------------------  ---------- 
ARK x-400/x-450                                0.5                            
Century Swift                96                1.0                            
Dragonus 450                                   0.5                         3.17 
E Raptor e550               111                1.0                            
E Raptor e620               111                1.0                            
EP-8                        120                0.8                         5.0 
Eco 8                                          0.5                            
Eolo                                           0.7                            
Gazur Mars/Poseiden                            0.5                            
HDX 500                      94                0.6                         5.0 
Hurricane 550 ep           two-stage           0.8                         5.0 
JR Voyager E                                32 pitch                          
Joker 1                                        1.0                            
Lepton                       94                0.6                            
Logo 10                     200                0.5                         5.0 
Logo 14                     138                0.7 Straight                            
Logo 16 and 20                                 1.0                            
Logo 500                    212                0.5 herringbone                  
Logo 600                    153                0.7 herringbone                      
Logo bionic (24)                               0.7                            
MS Stinger/Ikarus Viper                        0.5                            
Robbe Spirit 16                                1.0                            
Trex 450                    150                0.5                         3.17 
Trex 600                    170                0.7 or spiral/helical       5.0 
TT miniTitan e325           150                0.5                         3.17 
------------------------  -------------  -----------------------------  ----------
Nice project, looking forward to it evovling rapidly
Attached Files
File Type: zip RcHeli_Spreadsheets.071204.zip (22.8 KB, 141 views)
File Type: zip MotoCalc_Motor_Table.zip (72.6 KB, 2202 views)
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Old 12-04-2007, 02:09 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Thanks Kenneth, thats a lot of great info you passed along. The idea is to make the app into a tabbed dialog or form based app with options, motor data, heli data, gearing, etc. and allow various settings to be adjusted (ie load voltages, etc). I personally like the idea of XML over CSV because its self descriptive using a schema.

This might be a fairly big undertaking so it will take a while but having the online community help out will make it go faster.

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Old 12-04-2007, 02:34 AM   #31 (permalink)
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I think the Mikado forum should get the award for the most ambitious members .
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Old 12-04-2007, 02:36 AM   #32 (permalink)
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For extra points...

Generate a graph of headspeed (y-axis) vs battery voltage (x-axis) with one trace for each of a range of pinions. Shade background to show the target headspeed band based on configured min/max thresholds. The voltage axis would span the min-to-max voltage based on the configured cell-type, loaded voltage values and number of cells.

Have fun Bruce
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Old 12-04-2007, 03:43 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgfly View Post
For extra points...

Generate a graph of headspeed (y-axis) vs battery voltage (x-axis) with one trace for each of a range of pinions. Shade background to show the target headspeed band based on configured min/max thresholds. The voltage axis would span the min-to-max voltage based on the configured cell-type, loaded voltage values and number of cells.

Have fun Bruce
I already started thinking about that one. My original idea was to use a polar graph with the growing radii representing battery cells with head speed on the outer ring. The range of each pinion (with error range) would be positioned on each outward radius and a line could be drawn from the center to desired head speed. The intercept would be the applicable pinion at each radii. Of course each motor has its own range of voltage for a given KV rating so there would be limits.

This could be fun.
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Old 12-04-2007, 05:02 AM   #34 (permalink)
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A warning when it comes to csv files. Microsoft Excel has a bug which only bites non-English people in that it uses the list separator as a the "comma", which means that I cannot load a "true" csv without either changing my regional settings, or open it in a text editor and replace comma with semi-colon. A major pain, since its almost impossible to do right with escaping and all.
The only thing that seems to work OK internationally is tab separated columns. (Or xml, which works as long as you don't make a mistake. Then its even a bigger pain in the a** to fix.)
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:24 AM   #35 (permalink)
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What is the efficiency on the Z-Power 1150kv?
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:42 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
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What is the efficiency on the Z-Power 1150kv?
This begs the question I've always had: how trustworthy are the numbers on efficiency that the manufacturers publish?

John
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Old 12-06-2007, 12:55 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I only see the efficiency factor posted on occasion about motors and usually start with 90% when its not listed. The Hacker motors say 85% efficient but I think it could be better. In general, the efficiency number is nothing but a fudge factor to help calibrate your tached speed with theoretical values. For instance, my Scorpion HK-2221-8 tachs at 3450 with a 13T and 95% throttle on my Trex450. To get that number in the calculator I had to dial the efficiency factor up to 97%. I'm fairly sure there is more than 3% energy loss in the system or the KV rating has some amount of error in it.

On another note, I put in a little more time on the calculator last night and made a property sheet style dialog but only have the basic calculator in place right now and added motor RPM to the stats. Maybe I'll pop up a new version tonight.
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Old 12-06-2007, 04:57 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Its not reliable at all, because even the fixed values are not

from batch to batch some manufacturers have a tolerance of +-5% of the KV, meaning you will have to use a 12T while I have to use a 13T to get the same HS.

so everthing should be taken with a grain of salt, but it will give you an estimate.


Ps: Bruce, I like it!


Regards to battery "quality" which was my original idea, some people get upset because "thats wrong, it has nothing to do etc etc...",
See it like a tweak setting.
If I know I over-mah:ed my heli setup (running larger batteries then needed) I can use that setting to tweak the real life experience.
So its the "poor mans way" to skip the KG spreadsheet. (or for those that think its too complex), but also at least I actually have packs that are of same model, same size but gives about 150rpm different headspeed (different internal resistance).
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Old 12-06-2007, 05:15 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Thanks MrMel. I liked your idea of different loading voltages and its a good estimate to help see the head speed range thats possible.
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Old 12-06-2007, 05:51 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMel View Post
Its not reliable at all, because even the fixed values are not
Cool, that's what I thought. It always just seemed a semi-random number anyway - 87+/5% or so.

John
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