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Old 11-05-2013, 07:58 PM   #201 (permalink)
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And then there is me....old fart, chicken-heart, coward....still cannot hover nose in IRL, but sim has gone CRAZY....in Clear View, with 450XL, in IU, rolls both directions, loops, back and forward flips, multiple piros, nose in flying, hovering....feelin' all cocky and slick at such new found skills.

Then it's outside for IRL heart-wrenching-palpitating efforts at normal hovering and flying 8's. Creating dry mouth and hypertension...and racing heart just doing such simple things with my 450's.

I guess I'm beyond the help of even the best training plan and syllabus; there must be something going on between head and fingers that is connected to the debit card or something scarier.

IRL Discouragement....IRL...
aerobob, Calm down, relax, breathe...

Yes the hip pocket can play a big part in the nerves of flying (so can the sim practice).

Step 1. I think your ClearView setup may be too stable, too easy. to replicate real flying. What speed are you running the sim at? What DR are you using? What expo are you using? What model? What head speed? Are you adding wind?

Step 2. Appreciate IRL flying will be more stressful and take time to become accustomed to. It took nearly 100 nano flights for me to become comfortable with the nano (and it's near indestructible). The 130x still has it's days (when flying in close quarters). My X5 is new enough to me that every flight gives me some nervous moments (even though I have piro-flipped it and flown inverted circuits with it).

Flying RC helis is hard. This is part of what makes this so rewarding (if not stressful).

Progress IRL like you did in sim. IRL progress will be quicker (and safer) because of the sim, but it still will be a progression path.

Just because you can do it in the sim, does not mean that you can do it IRL yet.

If you can do it 10 times in succession in the sim with no mistakes, no crashes, no gimmies, no nervousness, then you should try it (at height) IRL.
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Old 11-05-2013, 08:04 PM   #202 (permalink)
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And then there is me....old fart, chicken-heart, coward....still cannot hover nose in IRL, but sim has gone CRAZY....in Clear View, with 450XL, in IU, rolls both directions, loops, back and forward flips, multiple piros, nose in flying, hovering....feelin' all cocky and slick at such new found skills.

Then it's outside for IRL heart-wrenching-palpitating efforts at normal hovering and flying 8's. Creating dry mouth and hypertension...and racing heart just doing such simple things with my 450's.

I guess I'm beyond the help of even the best training plan and syllabus; there must be something going on between head and fingers that is connected to the debit card or something scarier.

IRL Discouragement....IRL...
Hey, No worries!
I'm 50 years old this year, no "spring chicken" in a video game sense, but I've found that this sim training regimen has allowed me to get very, very comfortable with the real thing...

You can't hold on too tight to the real life bird.... Meaning that once you truly have the comfort level on the sim, (especially if you train with the sim "more sensitive" than your real life bird), the "testicular fortitude" to do these maneuvers with the real bird will come very naturally...

We all feel the same way about crashing....I don't want to spend time rebuilding, when I could be flying and improving my skills, but the comfort/knowledge that comes with doing it on the sim will eventually over power that pucker factor, and that's when the fun really begins!

Before using the sim in this fashion, I would tense up every time I flew the real thing, and as I would panic or pucker, I would gradually bring the Radio Tx closer and closer to me until it was almost at my face...Now with the comfort level of knowing how to get out of tougher orientations, I can keep my Tx down right at belt level or so, and I don't tense up as much...With that comfort comes confidence, and confidence rewards with stress free real life flight...

Keep at it, and set a goal of trying one new "move" IRL per flying session, and you'll see that it will progress quickly after you can get away with the first "move" without any major issues...

Cheers!
Franz in NJ
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Old 11-05-2013, 09:06 PM   #203 (permalink)
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Another thing that would help is do your IRL with a bird like mCPx or mCPx-BL. That thing is [nearly] indestructible! No hours in the shop repairing ... Fly over grass [baseball field, for instance], hit throttle hold anytime you are about to meet the ground, pick it up, dust it off, reconnect what popped out, test that all works, and continue flying!
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Old 11-05-2013, 09:32 PM   #204 (permalink)
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+1 on IRL sim, nano, mCPX, mCPX BL

I have the Sim setup so it is harder to fly than my RL Heli's!
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Old 11-05-2013, 09:53 PM   #205 (permalink)
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I appreciate all the encouraging comments, and am working feverishly on the complexity of my own mental conditions. This issue is ME, now....have the mechanical/electrical stuff on the RL helis worked out. Flying the sim in conditions harder than local, using a Trex 450XL in IU with lots of poop, and sim wx set to emulate my local RL wx.

I like the suggestion of targeting "one move" for each outing - maybe that level of breaking down IRL flight will help my TRS 80 cranial processor get more modern. Thanks, guys.
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Old 11-07-2013, 04:10 PM   #206 (permalink)
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It's three o'clock "ante meridiem", I had just finished one more session and I suddenly felt bathed in cold sweat as a terrible suspicion run through my mind. I open my bookmarks and there it is! Under folders "RC"-->"Class"--> From tail-in to all 8s and funnels in 6 months. I click the link, read the first page again, can't be absolutely sure, (you see I was shaking while reading and maybe, I say maybe, I've lost some lines.) and then start typing this post, almost ready for your inevitable answer...

ArchmageAU please tell me that when you say "rest at least 15' between sessions", you mean rest AFK. Please don't tell me that you meant that rest time could be play time if I wanted so.

You see it's a bit difficult to have 4-6 sessions per day, rest time in between them, and then, in the end, some playtime. So, since I'm doing this for a couple weeks now and in order to keep away from sim while having my rest time, so that my mind can "absorb" the new information and skill, I ended up having no play time at all.

I REALLY CAN'T ACCEPT I WASTED 76 QUARTERS OF AN HOUR WHICH COULD HAVE BEEN PLAY TIME.

FOR GOODNESS SHAKE ArchmageAU talk to me man! I'm on the verge of a nervous breakdown!

JUST TELL ME THAT THIS IS A BAD JOKE! THAT YOU JUST EDITED AND REMOVED THE LINE SAYING "of course, right after your session and during your rest time you can just sway around and play freely as much as you like" TO MAKE FUN OF ME!

I - I - I...BEG YOU...

Last edited by nougiw; 11-08-2013 at 03:17 AM..
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Old 11-07-2013, 04:58 PM   #207 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by nougiw View Post
It's three o'clock "ante meridiem", I had just finished one more session and I suddenly felt bathed in cold sweat as a terrible suspicion run through my mind. I open my bookmarks and there it is! Under folders "RC"-->"Class"--> From tail-in to all 8s and funnels in 6 months. I click the link, read the first page again, can't be absolutely sure, (you see I was shaking while reading and maybe, I say maybe, I've lost some lines.) and then start typing this post, almost ready for your inevitable answer...

ArchmageAU please tell me that when you say "rest at least 15' between sessions", you mean rest AFK. Please don't tell me that you meant that rest time could be play time if I wanted so.

You see it's a bit difficult to have 4-6 sessions per day, rest time in between them, and then, in the end, some playtime. So, since I'm doing this for a couple weeks now and in order to keep away from sim while having my rest time, so that my mind can "absorb" the new information and skill, I ended up having no play time at all.

I REALLY CAN'T ACCEPT I WASTED 76 QUARTERS OF AN HOUR WHICH COULD HAVE BEEN PLAY TIME.

FOR GOODNESS SHAKE ArchmageAU talk to me man! I'm on the verge of a nervous breakdown!

JUST TELL ME THAT THIS IS A BAD JOKE! THAT YOU JUST EDITED AND REMOVED THE LINE SAYING "of course, right after your session and during your rest time you can just sway around and play freely as much as you like" TO HAVE SOME FUN WITH ME!

I - I - I...BEG YOU...
Rest means do not do another stress session of trying to keep exact hovering.

This can be play time. But do not expect to be as productive.

Your brain needs time to absorb the information. If that is twiddling sticks and throwing a heli round the sim, then so be it, but it's BEST to not treat the sim like this and actually take a break. (What you do in practice, you do IRL).

If you run at this too hard, you WILL burn out (personal and at least one other HF members experience). You will get to the point where you do not want to touch an RC heli for a couple of months. (I can be considered mild OCD in my approach to new things. After I got to all 8's I had to back off for a month, fortunately I spent a lot of time acquiring and setting up the X5 which filled the gap - only flying or simming a couple times a day).

Take the hovering sessions back to 2 or 3 a day at most (you will still progress at the same rate). Spend the other 2-4 sessions per day as solely play time (loops, rolls, flips, circles, 8s, funnels, inverted flying, tic-tocs, rainbows, precision landings, autorotations, non tail-in landings, piro travelling, balloon popping, FPV, FPV quad, prio-flips, etc... whatever you want).

btw, Play time is not limited to 15 mins. This is un-structured learning/experimentation time. Play as long as you like, within reason. (Unfortunately, knowing how addictive flying is, this feels like telling an alcoholic to drink till they feel they have had enough ).
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Old 11-07-2013, 07:41 PM   #208 (permalink)
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If anyone is in doubt, this stuff works. Two months ago bought Phoenix with DX6 to learn to fly planes. After a few weeks got bit by the heli bug. Bought a Nano QX to get a feel. Then found this site and this thread. Soon bought a DX9 and have been doing this training for about two weeks. All session one. Got pretty good with it so took the plunge and bought a Nano CPX. Setup my DX9. Loaded the battery, popped the Nano up and can fly it fairly well. Tail in, nose in and slow laps. This stuff works. Now I do my 15 min on the sim. Then run 6 batteries through the Nano. It rocks.
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Old 11-08-2013, 01:28 PM   #209 (permalink)
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Rest means do not do another stress session of trying to keep exact hovering.

This can be play time. But do not expect to be as productive.

Your brain needs time to absorb the information. If that is twiddling sticks and throwing a heli round the sim, then so be it, but it's BEST to not treat the sim like this and actually take a break. (What you do in practice, you do IRL).

If you run at this too hard, you WILL burn out (personal and at least one other HF members experience). You will get to the point where you do not want to touch an RC heli for a couple of months. (I can be considered mild OCD in my approach to new things. After I got to all 8's I had to back off for a month, fortunately I spent a lot of time acquiring and setting up the X5 which filled the gap - only flying or simming a couple times a day).

Take the hovering sessions back to 2 or 3 a day at most (you will still progress at the same rate). Spend the other 2-4 sessions per day as solely play time (loops, rolls, flips, circles, 8s, funnels, inverted flying, tic-tocs, rainbows, precision landings, autorotations, non tail-in landings, piro travelling, balloon popping, FPV, FPV quad, prio-flips, etc... whatever you want).

btw, Play time is not limited to 15 mins. This is un-structured learning/experimentation time. Play as long as you like, within reason. (Unfortunately, knowing how addictive flying is, this feels like telling an alcoholic to drink till they feel they have had enough ).

Thank you very much for the info (and for the thread of course). It is really precious!
I think you are right. Actually I do sessions of 20', not 15', and I think that 4-6 are too much, so I'm gonna cut it down to one upright and two inverted per day. I'm gonna continue taking my rest time away from sim since you say it's better and after that I can probably have playtime for an hour or so (less is almost impossible ). In how much time did you finally complete this guide?
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Old 11-08-2013, 03:20 PM   #210 (permalink)
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Agree 100% with Archmage, i think a lot of people using this reference are over using it and slowing down thier progress vs speeding it up. Theres certainly a line of doing it to much to where it doesnt sink it. I dont even sim everyday and usually only one 20-40minute session when i do but i usually go a day or 2 in between those sessions. If they are days in a row there usually shorter sessions and my mind always feels fresh to flying when i fire up the sim and i can generally see my progression happening every session
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Old 11-08-2013, 03:55 PM   #211 (permalink)
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Thank you very much for the info (and for the thread of course). It is really precious!
I think you are right. Actually I do sessions of 20', not 15', and I think that 4-6 are too much, so I'm gonna cut it down to one upright and two inverted per day. I'm gonna continue taking my rest time away from sim since you say it's better and after that I can probably have playtime for an hour or so (less is almost impossible ). In how much time did you finally complete this guide?
Thank you.

It took about 2 months averaging about 2 sessions a day for me to get 100% speed, 0 crashes, 8 point piro's (both CW and CCW, upright and inverted in the same session) in Heli-X. (exact numbers were from 27/01/2013 - 13/02/2013, 67 session, to get first inverted slow piro session with no crashes. 27/01/2013 - 26/03/2013, 122 session, to get to swapping upright and inverted 8 point piros with no crashes). As you can see, I started fast and slowed as I went.

14th Feb, I made my IRL invert hover goal with the nano. Took till 1st June to IRL fly the all 8's pattern.

But the warning is that your speed WILL vary from this. We all learn at different rates. For some this is fast, and others this is slow.

I still do the occasional piro session (about 3 a week), just to keep the coordination automatic (more when I am away from home). I also do recovery training and autorotation training (and work moves from MAAA gold wings test, fast piro-hovers and prio-flips).

The full guide itself took only a couple of days to write (then revisions and videos, etc). But learning it all took the 6 months.

As I joke with my wife, It's been tested on animals (ie. me).

I am happy it has helped so many people.
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Old 11-10-2013, 09:45 AM   #212 (permalink)
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Finally found out how to gauge when I've been at it too long....my vision goes tunnel, peripheral vision and auditory response shuts down, and the screen starts looking like a kaleidoscope with a dark border.

BUT - I am doing slow piros, both directions, 4 point and continuous, and inverted hovering (which means I'm now using IU mode, and doing half-back flips, or half rolls, depending on how long I've been in the session) - at HALF SPEED. But - that is with small gusts, multiple directions. small turbulence.

I am only at this point because I forced myself to "start over" on the syllabus.
The use of the sim - to me - has been absolutely critical, even though I'm not up to much of this IRL - Yet...

Thanks again, Arch!
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Old 11-12-2013, 12:51 AM   #213 (permalink)
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Is it recommended to use dr expo settings set up for hovering while in hover training? I just started the inverted piro's and I'm doing ok. I've been doing the presgression with my full 3D settings, am I making myself work harder than necessary?

Sorry if this has been covered already!

Thanks
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Old 11-12-2013, 01:23 AM   #214 (permalink)
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Is it recommended to use dr expo settings set up for hovering while in hover training? I just started the inverted piro's and I'm doing ok. I've been doing the presgression with my full 3D settings, am I making myself work harder than necessary?
...
Yes. DR and expo are recommended. Adjust them to taste.

I use DR 100 and expo 20. Others may be more comfortable on 80/30 or 90/0.

You just need to feel connected to the heli. Movements in the stick must make the corrections in the heli you anticipate so you don't over-correct and don't under-correct (chase corrections).
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Old 11-12-2013, 09:48 AM   #215 (permalink)
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Arch, I'd like to provide some feedback from my experience to help this guide keeping it's first position around.

In realflight (6), which I'm using, I have to inform you that is really difficult and moreover wrong to start from upright position when you hover inverted. The loop or flip you are called to perform is totally NOT like IRL. For a strange reason realflight chooses the flybarred version of Dominion 3D 90 by default when you enter hover training -or any other training- mode and does not give you the option to chose any other heli, nor changing it's properties (i.e. RPM). OR I haven't found the way yet!
The problem with this heli is that is doesn't feel like a real life heli at all. Even compared to the behavior of the same heli when chosen outside training mode, it spools up much slower and it is more weak in terms of power. So when you try to invert it with really nice and precise inputs it will still bog to death, loose stability and generally be a nightmare for a starter. I have to mention here that I practice in small circle. Maybe medium or large would be better...
Anyway, when I started this guide I had been away from real flight for 4 months, but during my last flight in real life (15/05/2013) I was able to hover tail/nose-in upright and nose-in inverted. Tail-in inverted was a bit more difficult, I struggled at the time. Lots of phoenix playtime followed up during summer and autumn and then almost a month ago I started this guide. Today, after so much practice and despite the fact that I flip almost staying still in RF6, when I'm in training mode I struggle with flips and especially rolls. I think I can safely presume that it is not very realistic at least for a starter OR it's made like this in purpose just to make you feel like a pro when you go and try what you learned in a real heli. Who knows... Even my 130x bogged less when flipped...

BTW if someone has find a way to change heli or properties while inside "Heli Hover Training..." please do feel free to share the knowledge by all means...
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Old 11-12-2013, 10:57 AM   #216 (permalink)
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Loading another heli in hover training in RF:
* In hover training
* click ` [the key just to the left of the number 1, above ` there is ~]; this will bring up a text line
* type: LoadVehicle heliname [instead of 'heliname' put the exact name of the heli you want to upload]
* click ` again to remove the text line/box

Re hovering inverted - what are you enabling in hover? i found out that when I enable only roll, to balance the heli [make it stationary], the heli is extremely tilted to one side
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Old 11-12-2013, 11:24 AM   #217 (permalink)
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And now for a more complication subject...

When I'm piro hovering, I've noticed that there are two different states that my mind gets into. Let's say it's Conscious hovering and Unconscious hovering. Let me explain my self. First of all, as you may all ready have guessed most of the time I'm into C(onscious) than U(nconscious) hovering, thus meaning I'm thinking every single second what input should I give.
BUT, sometimes, like we all do at certain points of the day, I'm not there while hovering. I'm either immersed in my thoughts, or just paying very close attention to the bass line in the very backround of those five wind's solo, or thinking what I forgot to buy from the supermarket earlier, or what time does my girlfriend gets back from work so that dinner is served right on time(try this and she will always let you session whenever you like) or even speaking on the phone while on session (handsfree is my secret) for a subject that it really gets my attention. At those moments I'm not there thinking of the inputs at all. I really can't tell at the very moment that is happening but just when I get out from that... how should I call it now, hibernation? lethargy?... I go like WOW!

No dude, I mean like... REALLY WOW! Did I just was on the phone talking with my friend on his new 600 and my mind was left in front of the monitor performing piro hovering without crashing???

No F way, but yes I did!
So, as I already told you, this is way less in duration that the other, the conscious
hovering. I can't say how for how much it goes on, maybe seconds or a couple minutes
tops, that's what would be my wild guess. Sometimes I even try to provoke it starting by thinking other stuff than the hovering itself. It really doesn't work this way... lol.

The question is, if this state of mind is better and desirable or not.
To make my mind on this I tried to compare how stable I am in the 2 different states. Strangely enough, when I get out from the unconscious hover I have an approximate idea of how stable my hover was. But hey! I mean...part of my mind was still there, right?
What I have noticed time after time is that during this non conscious hovering time the heli would stay most of the time closer to the dot in the center of the circle than when conscious hovering but less dead-on the dot. Following the Chinese proverb, I went on and made a picture for a better understanding.



To be honest I find this pretty much logical. You see in order to hold heli right on top of the dot I use continuous precise corrections which are not easy for me in every orientation yet. So when I am consciously hovering I can keep it dead-on while nose/tail-in but then when it goes more to the side than tail/nose I start losing it and at that time if I relax and say ok, no need to be dead-on, I just keep it easily around the dot, but if I put extreme stress on me to preserve its dead-on position, I usually end up overcorrecting and wander all over the circle until a few moments later nose or tail is in again and I manage to recover it avoiding -the always unwanted- crash. On the other hand, during unconscious hover my mind is always relaxed so I rarely go far away from the dot but I'm never dead on because I don't think at all to do any corrections -let alone precise ones.
In that point I have another addition to make. It's been time that I think a minute and a half works even better that a minute for me. Also I find that the perfect period is three minutes and a half. That really makes you hover in EVERY orientation.
Anyway, back on the topic, since I'm sure you perfectly understand what I'm talking of and have experienced it yourself too, what do you think is better for faster progression?
I know I said I can't force myself to think other things right when I want me to, but I can easily schedule my daily calls to concur with my sessions...muaaahahahaaaa
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Old 11-12-2013, 11:57 AM   #218 (permalink)
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nougiw,

I too have noticed this "unconscious" flying at times since I started this training program. There are many times (and the more I practice the more often I notice these moments), where my thumbs become "disconnected" from my brain and they just do what needs to be done to keep the heli in control. I call it "Being in the Zone". I think a lot of high caliber professional athletes can get in this zone on a regular basis. They no longer think about doing, their bodies just do it. Race car drivers experience time dilation when racing at high speeds. I have come to the conclusion that this "zone" will just start to happen on a more regular basis the more I practice. And by practice, I mean repetitive, same thing over and over again, practice; i.e. Lesson 1 and 4 hover training. I am at the point where I can hover upright and inverted for 10 minutes without crashing, but I still have to really think about it too often and still input incorrect stick movements. I have noticed that if I turn the volume up on my iPod, I am finding myself getting into this "zone" more often and I no longer feel that I am thinking about flying, I just fly. The stick movements become natural and instinctive. I have a quite a bit more practice before that becomes the norm for a 10 minute session, but I can feel it coming. Thanks to this training program that AU has put together, it has showed me the correct way to practice. And the more I follow this practice regiment, the more I notice the zone feeling. I am confident that if I stick to this training routine, inverted backwards flight will become as natural and unimposing as tail in upright hovering.
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Old 11-12-2013, 12:04 PM   #219 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Loading another heli in hover training in RF:
* In hover training
* click ` [the key just to the left of the number 1, above ` there is ~]; this will bring up a text line
* type: LoadVehicle heliname [instead of 'heliname' put the exact name of the heli you want to upload]
* click ` again to remove the text line/box

Re hovering inverted - what are you enabling in hover? i found out that when I enable only roll, to balance the heli [make it stationary], the heli is extremely tilted to one side
Hi there! Thank you very much for that command. Is there a manual that I can find others too?

Indeed you are right, it needs almost a 30 degree tilt. Not realistic at all. But this is a strange situation that you can't face in life, having a computer playing for you the other channels and I must tell you , I didn't find it helpful from the very start. So, I actually enabled all controls from day one.

Concerning my observation-problem now, I just loaded the FBL version of the dominion using your command which I have customized to run always on 1950RPM and I can still see a difference. Ok, it's not that big now that the heli runs on a higher RPM and is the fbl version that I use when in playtime too, but there is still a different.
I did a test, I went to the same position where the circle appears in training mode, using W,A,S,D, I fixed the camera, chose autozoom pressing repeatedly Z and then spool up from there just like I was in training mode. Loops are indeed more easier out of training mode. I'm sure now. So, I guess, it's pretty much set on "harder" level when on training so that it balances the lack of anxiety and the fear. I don't know what else to think... Let's wait for some other opinions too...

Thanks again for the command!
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Old 11-12-2013, 12:52 PM   #220 (permalink)
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ssmith512,

that's what I like to hear man! I'm having a session already!

Last edited by nougiw; 11-12-2013 at 07:00 PM..
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