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Old 12-20-2013, 08:10 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Okay, I think I got it pegged into a formula.

Your inputs are: M (Master) and S0 (Slave at it's initial value)
Your parameters are: RH (Rate High), RL (Rate Low), and OS (OffSet)

So: M > S, RH, RL, OS

We are looking for the value of S1 (the Slave channel value after applying the mix)

Step 1: Calculate (M - OS)


Step 2: Calculate the Adjustment (ADJ) like this -

if (M-OS) is positive --> ADJ = (M-OS)/100*RH

if (M-OS) is negative --> ADJ = (OS-M)/100*RL


Step 3: Calculate S1 (Slave value after mix was applied)

S1 = S0 + ADJ

===========================================

Special cases:

If RL = 0, then S1 remains the same as S0 as long as the Master is below the Offset

If RH = 0, then S1 remains the same as S0 as long as the Master is above the Offset (note that this is ArchMGAU first two examples)
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Old 12-21-2013, 12:02 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaf06 View Post
Okay, I think I got it pegged into a formula.

Your inputs are: M (Master) and S0 (Slave at it's initial value)
Your parameters are: RH (Rate High), RL (Rate Low), and OS (OffSet)

So: M > S, RH, RL, OS

We are looking for the value of S1 (the Slave channel value after applying the mix)

Step 1: Calculate (M - OS)


Step 2: Calculate the Adjustment (ADJ) like this -

if (M-OS) is positive --> ADJ = (M-OS)/100*RH

if (M-OS) is negative --> ADJ = (OS-M)/100*RL


Step 3: Calculate S1 (Slave value after mix was applied)

S1 = S0 + ADJ

===========================================

Special cases:

If RL = 0, then S1 remains the same as S0 as long as the Master is below the Offset

If RH = 0, then S1 remains the same as S0 as long as the Master is above the Offset (note that this is ArchMGAU first two examples)
Yes. "By George you've got it!!"

I would represent the Step 2: functions as:

if (M-OS) is positive --> ADJ = ((M-OS)/100)*RH
if (M-OS) is negative --> ADJ = ((OS-M)/100)*RL

This way any number times 0 = 0 (no adjustment). (as you outlined in special cases).

If M is -100 and OS is 100, (OS-M) = (100 - (-100)) = +200.

One final note is that if multiple mixes are for the same slave, the offset results are added in series to the slave and clipped at -150/+150 after each addition. (This is how the auto-centre mixes work).

Well done. This is not an easy concept to master.

(Just as a side note, -(M-OS) = (OS-M) , so ((M-OS)/100)*RH and ((M-OS)/100)*-RL also work as formulas - This is probably the way the firmware implements the formulas - ((M-OS)/100), if +ve multiply by RH, if -ve multiply by -RL - This works well in binary math with carry flags - It's how I would have done it.).
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Old 12-21-2013, 12:38 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Default A mixology calculater

Okay - here is a link to an Excel spreadsheet that shows the calculation and a graph.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3G...it?usp=sharing

You need to enter one time the mix parameters (in orange).

Then, for the value of S0 (in green; this is the initial value of the Slave channel, prior to the application of the mix)

The spreadsheet then calculates the resulting values of S1, for a range of the Master channel from -100 to +100

Try checking it with Arch's examples.
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Old 12-24-2013, 01:19 PM   #24 (permalink)
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My brain hurts! but I have the feeling that if I just go back and forth over this thread a few times I will magically transform into someone who thinks he finally understands. So thanks for this thread of hope!
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Old 12-24-2013, 01:52 PM   #25 (permalink)
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If you wish, PM me with any questions.

It took me some time to figure this out (of course, without our venerable ArchmageAU, I'd be totally lost too! Thanks Arch ).
Check out the spreadsheet.

The two most thorny parts are -
[1] understanding the Offset,
[2] realizing that the mix adds an adjustment to the Slave channel's initial value, such that the new value (S1) is equal to the initial value (S0) plus the adjustment.

In a way, it's a function with:
3 parameters (RateHigh, RateLow, Offset),
2 variables (M = the value of the Master channel, and S0 = the initial value of the Slave channel)
-> resulting in a revised value of the Slave channel (S1)
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Last edited by Olaf06; 12-24-2013 at 11:06 PM..
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Old 12-24-2013, 03:31 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PassinThru View Post
My brain hurts! but I have the feeling that if I just go back and forth over this thread a few times I will magically transform into someone who thinks he finally understands. So thanks for this thread of hope!
You you cold also PM me (the author ). I will try find an explanation that will not hurt too much.

The trick to understanding this is to first understand a normal mix (like aileron/rudder to emulate piro-comp) that is centered around middle. Next imagine that travel of one of the servos is different above 0 than below zero. (This will explain the two sides of the mix).

Finally imaging the center for the mix (where no interaction occurs) is not in the center of the source channel. This is to explain offset.

Next apply math (and turn your mind inside out as you imagine impossible situations that the math still allows ).
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Old 01-19-2014, 08:32 AM   #27 (permalink)
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So I fallowed along but when I tried to apply it to my 12X it doesn't work out. Here's what I got.

With a master set normal -100, 0, +100 I made a mix of -50 Low, +50 High, +50 Offset.
That should have returned +25, +25, +75 right?

But it didn't. Using the "monitor" screen I could see it go from above 25 to below 25 to below 75. So I started increasing my Off set and came up with -50, +50, +86 to get it to stay still and it does appears to be +25, +25, +75. I also changed it to -75, +75, +86 and got what appears to be +37.5, +37.5, +112...

Any Ideas why the JR is so weird with the offset?

Also I noticed that using the Fmod switch will not return the proper numbers. Even with a +125, +125, 0 mix it will not even make it to the 50 marks on the monitor screen.

FYI I have made absolutely sure that there are no knobs, switches, trims, or other mixes messing with my numbers.

Just curious.
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Old 01-19-2014, 02:01 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chickens2252 View Post
So I fallowed along but when I tried to apply it to my 12X it doesn't work out. Here's what I got.
....
Any Ideas why the JR is so weird with the offset?
No clue. Not having a 12X to play with, it's hard to make sense as to why the offset would change.

What outputs do you get from -50, +50, -86 (+75, +25, +25). This will tell if offset is proportional (divided by 1.72) or just shifted. If proportional, it allows a greater granularity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chickens2252 View Post
Also I noticed that using the Fmod switch will not return the proper numbers. Even with a +125, +125, 0 mix it will not even make it to the 50 marks on the monitor screen.
On the Spektrum DX, FMod does not output a channel value, it is only used to switch between the different flight modes. As such it cannot be used as a mixer.

Thank you for raising the observation though.
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Old 01-19-2014, 08:44 PM   #29 (permalink)
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ArchmageAU,

Good call on trying the other direction. I hadn't even considered that the Offset would just be shifted. But it was proportional. I got the 75, 25 ,25. So I guess I just have to use 1.72, that comes from nowhere, in my computations. Strange though the limit for offset is +or- 200 in steps of two. So they gave up range for a finer adjustment then threw that out with steps of two.

Thanks
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Old 02-21-2014, 04:05 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Default Re: Solving the DX8 spectrum mix setting mystery.

Is there a calculator besides the one in my head for calc mix :what:
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Old 02-21-2014, 04:42 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by lastofthefew View Post
Is there a calculator besides the one in my head for calc mix :what:
Unfortunately not. Too many variables for a simple spreadsheet. (two linear inputs, to one output value, lends itself to 3D planar mapping, not standard 2D plots).

Ask a specific question, or a mix you are trying to do, and I will try work it out for you. Fortunately (or not), my brain just works this way..
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Old 02-21-2014, 04:57 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Default Re: Solving the DX8 spectrum mix setting mystery.

Soon as I get my unit. .
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Old 02-21-2014, 06:39 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Yes - check out this:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3G...it?usp=sharing
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Old 02-21-2014, 08:18 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaf06 View Post
It's a good start. Does not include things like clipping (+/-150), or multiple mixes. It shows the offset, to the target channel, but not the

It basically graphs:

Adjust = ((M-OS)/100)*RH and ((M-OS)/100)*-RL
where:
M = Master Channel
OS = Offset
RH = Rate High (over 0 mix)
RL = Rate Low (under 0 mix)


In excel format:
cell B1=RH (label in cell A1 = "Rate High")
cell B2=RL (label in cell A2 = "Rate Low")
cell B3=OS (label in cell A3 = "Offset")
(label in cell A4 = "Master", label in cell B4 = "Mix")
cells A5 to A100 are the master values -150 -> +150 (choose your own granularity)
cell B5=IF($A5>0,(($A5-$B$3)/100)*$B$1),(($A5-$B$3)/100)*(-$B$1))
** formula is for cell B5 and can be copied to B5 to B100

A clipping function for C5 would be:
(label in cell C4 = "Post Clip")
cell C5=IF($B5<-150,-150,IF($B5>150,150,$B5))
** formula is for cell C5 and can be copied to C5 to C100

(then graphed).

Problems come when using multiple mixes.

Remember mix output adjustments are applied, clipped and accumulated on the target channels, but target channels cannot be used for mix inputs. This is how the DX8 auto-cyclic centering works for the 3SX.
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Old 02-21-2014, 08:29 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I ... have ... a ... headache

Arch, you are the one!

Feel free to modify the file.
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Old 02-21-2014, 11:11 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Default Re: Solving the DX8 spectrum mix setting mystery.

Madness :banghead:
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Old 03-31-2014, 06:19 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Default oh crp!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageAU View Post
Ever wondered what the numbers in mix setting mean on the DX8 in heli models?

You have:
  • Master channel
  • Slave channel
  • Rate: <high percentage> <low percentage>
  • Offset: <percentage>
  • Trim: <INH/ACT>
  • Flight Mode: N12HM

To most except the Spectrum Inner sanctum, these have remained a source of trial and error.

The text from the manual is:



The above offers almost no explanation of how the numbers really work.

What is really going on.

I'll ignore the trim, but expose the rest.

The master channel is the control channel. It's current absolute value (from -150 to +150) is what is important here.

The slave channel is the control channel being altered. It plays only a "carrier" role of the output value from the mix. The mix value derived from the master channel is simply added to the output value on the slave channel.

The Flight modes are fairly self explanatory except for M. M (Mix) is the Gear switch in HELI mode. The great thing about this is now you have a 2 position switch that can be used to enable and disable a mix for ALL flight modes. Gear 1 is mix enabled, Gear 0 is mix disabled. Be careful when using this as it ALWAYS applies regardless of the flight mode. (ie. if you use this for throttle manipulation, it will also manipulate when throttle hold is on).

Now to mix numbers.

Think of the high rate percentage and the low rate percentage as the value the mix will have if the master channel is at +100 and -100 respectively. When the master channel is 0, it will have a value of 0 (irrespective of these other rate numbers). The adjust value of the mix changes linearly as the mix channel moves from centre to (OR PAST) either of these end points.

Offset is where it becomes tricky. Offset is how far to move this entire range so 0 has no change. This is where most peoples brains explode or implode.

If we have an offset of 50, The master channel must be at 50 for no change to slave channel. With this same offset of 50, if the master channel is at -50, the low rate is applied. With this same offset of 50, if the master channel is at -100, 1.5 times the low rate will be applied. With this same offset of 50, if the master channel is at +100, 0.5 times the high rate will be applied to the slave channel.

Last point is that mixes are applied cumulatively. If you have two mixes that affect the same slave channel, both output changes will be applied. That changes will be applied in the order of the Mix configuration. ie. Mix 1 is evaluated first, then Mix 2 (and so on). One other note on this is that all mixes occur to channel outputs and are not available as master inputs for other mixes. ie. If Mix 1 changes Aux2 output, and Mix 2 uses Aux2 to change Throttle, the alterations to the Aux2 output will not be used for the Mix 2 input (as it uses the source Aux2 value).


Uses and abuses for Mixing

My main abuse for mixing is to get more idle up modes (6) for my 130x. Next is to allow rescue on my X5 through the BD3SX.


6 Idle up modes

To get the 6 idle up modes (100, 95, 90, 85, 80 and 75% flat throttle) I use the following 2 mixes.

Mix 1 - Ax2 > Thr 0% -10% 100% (f.mode 2)
Mix 2 - Ax2 > Thr -10% 0% -100% (f.mode 1)

My throttle channel is flat 85% for UI1 and 100% for UI2 . Aux2 is controlled by the Gov switch.

What this does.

When Gov is in pos 0, it output Aux2 +100. Gov pos 1 = Aux2 0. Gov pos 2 = Aux2 -100.
  • In f.mode 2 and gov 0 (top), throttle is 100% (Mix 1 - 100% offset, so master channel at 100 means 0 change).
  • In f.mode 2 and gov 1 (middle), throttle is 95% (Mix 1 - 100% offset. At master value of 0, -10 is applied as master channel is -100 compared to offset (-10 = -5% in throttle terms)).
  • In f.mode 2 and gov 2 (bottom), throttle is 90% (Mix 1 - 100% offset, At master value of -100, -20 is applied as master channel is -200 compared to offset (-20 = 2*-10 as master channel is 2 times further than endpoint from offset). (-20 = -10% throttle terms)).
  • In f.mode 1 and gov 2 (bottom), throttle is 85% (Mix 2 - -100% offset, so master channel at -100 means 0 change, Throttle curve is 85% of UI1).
  • In f.mode 1 and gov 1 (middle), throttle is 80% (Mix 2 - -100% offset. At master value of 0, -10 is applied as master channel is +100 compared to offset (-10 = -5% in throttle terms)).
  • In f.mode 2 and gov 0 (top), throttle is 75% (Mix 2 - -100% offset, At master value of 100, -20 is applied as master channel is +200 compared to offset (-20 = 2*-10 as master channel is 2 times further than endpoint from offset). (-20 = -10% throttle terms)).

BD3SX rescue with auto level

My X5 mixes are for rescue facility on the BD3SX and mix Aux3 to pull the Aux2 channel to full negative when the Aux3 goes to -100 (Aux3 is assigned to my bind button, Aux2 channel is the BD3SX SL channel and assigned to the Gov switch).

To pull the Aux2 channel to full negative when the Aux3 goes to -100 I use the following single mix.

Mix 6 - Ax3 > Ax2 0% -125% 100% (f.mode N12H)

As the Aux 3 channel moves from +100 (no change) to -100, its change relative to the offset is -200 (200%), so -250 (or 2*-125) is applied to the Aux2 channel. This single mix ensures that no matter what the value of the self level (I have only up to 45%), it will pull it to full negative.

The last bit of magic, is during this rescue, I also want to centre the cyclics (elevator and aileron). I was told this cannot be done (which is why the investigation into mixing). I found a way.

Mix 1 - Ax3 > Ail 0% -125% 100% (f.mode N12H)
Mix 2 - Ax3 > Ail 0% 75% 100% (f.mode N12H)
Mix 3 - Ax3 > Ele 0% -125% 100% (f.mode N12H)
Mix 4 - Ax3 > Ele 0% 75% 100% (f.mode N12H)

Like the previous Aux2 channel, I pull the channel, hard to it's bottom limit (wiht Mix 1 and Mix 3). With Mix 2 and 4, I push it back to the dead center.

Now my BD3SX rescue auto-levels on my DX8


Congratulations if you made it to the end of this epic.

Hope this helps people.
Oh Crp, Well, looks like I'm going to be way over my head on this one , just bought new DX8 and BD to go on my beloved Gaui X5 and trying to read everything before it arrives.

Maybe I should stop reading and wait to set up.

I might have some questions................................ !

mitch_
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Old 03-31-2014, 09:31 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mitch_ View Post
Oh Crp, Well, looks like I'm going to be way over my head on this one , just bought new DX8 and BD to go on my beloved Gaui X5 and trying to read everything before it arrives.

Maybe I should stop reading and wait to set up.

I might have some questions................................ !

mitch_
I fly a BD3SX on my X5. I have already posted my .SPM in (Basic DX8 question setting travel limits for three way switch).

Learn it in small pieces.

Best when you have the unit to play with.

Happy to field questions.
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Old 04-01-2014, 01:48 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Will do, Thanks.

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Old 02-22-2015, 06:08 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Default Mixology Excel question

This forum is one of the best I have come across concerning Mixing, even thou I am of the fixed wing vs. the rotorary wing world. ( I gave up trying to fly an RC helio 40 years ago. ! )
I have a question about the Excel formula and graphing results. And I am trying to figure out were my thinking error comes about.
The Excel graph print-out for mix settings of "50,0,10" show the low range results on the +10 line of the vertical axis running from +10 to -100 on the horiz. axis. My vision is that it should be running of the "0" vertical axis line from the mix range +10 to -100.

I plotted the mix values for several other mix set-ups and attached my crude attempt at the results. I need the experts guidance. . .The truth shall set me free. . .hopefully.
WOW. . guess that I cannot attach my plotted Mixs. If I figure this forum out, I will send the plotting later. . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaf06 View Post
Okay - here is a link to an Excel spreadsheet that shows the calculation and a graph.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3G...it?usp=sharing

You need to enter one time the mix parameters (in orange).

Then, for the value of S0 (in green; this is the initial value of the Slave channel, prior to the application of the mix)

The spreadsheet then calculates the resulting values of S1, for a range of the Master channel from -100 to +100

Try checking it with Arch's examples.
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