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Electric Motors Winding and Repair Electric Motors Winding and Repair Discussion


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Old 04-11-2014, 08:52 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Kontronik Pyro 650

Pyro 650-62 rewind.
The 650 is basically a shortened Pyro 700 where the 700 has a 3930 stator and the 650 has a 3920 stator.
(39mm diameter and 20mm length)

Before:
Kv: 643rpm/V (YGE 18deg)
Io: 1.9A @13.5V
R: 26.7mOhm
# of turns: 7+7
Termination: Delta
Single strand: 0.95mm
Copper surface: 9.92mm^2
Mass: 291gr





After: (I call it the Rainbow Edition)
Kv: 850rpm/V (YGE 18deg)
Io: 2.5A @13.5V
R: 11.7mOhm
# of turns: 7+5
Termination: YY
Mono wire: 1.18mm
Copper surface: 13.1mm^2 (+32%)
Mass: 301gr



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Old 04-11-2014, 11:48 AM   #2 (permalink)
 

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I commissioned the motor for a 7s Logo 550se. The motor arrived today and the quality of Dekker's rewind is fantastic. Will let you know how it goes.

MJ
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Old 04-11-2014, 02:20 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Nice wind. Goes pretty fast too!
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Old 11-02-2014, 08:49 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Pyro 650 1.18mm 18turns 19.68mm^2

Pyro 650 1.18mm 18turns 19.68mm^2

This motor & wind was inspired by this video of Nico Niewind with his Pyro 650-62 Competition driving a Banshee with authority:

Nico Niewind - Banshee 700 + Pyro 650 (4 min 36 sec)


Here is a summary of the process I went through to get the final result:
So after seeing that video I though: if this works, why won't it work in my own E700? I suddenly felt the urge to investigate in the other direction of what most pilots do: in stead of going bigger, why not go smaller/lighter? What is good enough for Nico is surely good enough for me
However 620Kv was way too high for me since I'm not a fan of high rpm flying. I would rather have 1800-1900rpm.
With the smallest pinion available (12t) I would need ~530-550Kv max.

Of course it would be nice to get the absolute max out of the motor since with the Kv I need the internal resistance will not be very low anyway (relatively low Kv needing more turns --> resistance goes up).

Knowing the Competition version has ~16,4mm^2 of copper in each slot I investigated what would give me at least the same fill. Best candidate at first seemed an Y wind with 9 turns of 1.6mm wire. This would give me 18.1mm^2.

After a first trial it was clear: the stator coating needs to be gone if I want to do this. It did fit, but too tight for my taste.
Here you can clearly see a cross section of the P650/P700 stator with the stock coating, the biggest bumps already filed away:


The coating above is roughly 0.3mm thick. If I would replace that with normal isopaper I would be able to at least gain 0.15mm which should be enough to get the 1.6mm wire in properly. Here is an investigation I did in CAD to see how it will fit with my intended isopaper (0.14mm reserved):


However despite the fill being OK I was not satisfied with the unused space between the wires: too much space wasted for my taste. Also the outside wire (top right) runs against the edge of the hammer stalk, not nice for a tight wind. So I looked at my 2nd option: an YY wind with 18turns of 1.18mm wire (same Kv as 9 turns Y):


This looks much better and the fill is amazing: 19.67mm^2.
If I could get the two wires in the slot bottom next each other, the fit would be simply perfect: no wires crossing over the hammer stalk edges. This is going to be it.

So here is the P650 stator with the coating gone:


The wind from the front:


Un-terminated back side:


Termination done:


Finished:


Next to the motor it is going to replace, a tuned HK-4235 NM edition:


The HK-4235 is 540gr (original was 500gr).
The P650 is 332gr (original was 296gr).

Internal resistance measured: 17.8mOhm.
To be continued..
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Last edited by _Dekker; 11-03-2014 at 03:28 AM..
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Old 11-02-2014, 09:19 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Dek,
In more ways than one you dont know how much I appreciate this post pertainig to large vs smaller gauges and high vs low kv in your heli I hope im not the only one reading........ One helluva wind......whistles......



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Old 11-02-2014, 10:41 AM   #6 (permalink)
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It's amazing what you fit in there! Looking forward to the continuation
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Old 11-02-2014, 12:21 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default stay fair!

......the true opposite for P650 is the HK 4020 V3, not 4235!
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Old 11-02-2014, 01:04 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Stronger bearings????

What is the ABEC rating and class of balls, not type, but it wouldnt hurt to know that either,in the 4020 vs the 650 respectively?

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Old 11-02-2014, 04:49 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default stop hatin......

Mysteriously the post disappears about the scorpion having "stronger bearings and magnets".

Meanwhile everytime Dekker winds get compliment someones hating............Whats up with that??????

My colleague said something to me yesterday that has stuck in my mind.

A business man with no larceny in his heart wont make any money.......


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Old 11-03-2014, 12:32 AM   #10 (permalink)
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the written differences have been:

-shaft (8mm internal vs. 6mm)
-weight (the tuned 4020 is 4g less than tuned p650)
-bearings (16x8x5 vs. 13x6x4+14x6x4
-statorsize: 40-20 vs. 39,5-20
and if you ask for the magnets: N50EH vs. N45SH

it is also possible to wind the p650 stator for Dekkers rpm with 5+4Y instead of 9+9YY.
to get the same copper you would need 1,7mm wire. 1,6 is definately possible.
1,7 ( just more copper than into berts winding) on a "naked" stator I never tried.
In this special case it may be, you have to flatten the very first turn of each second tooth to get it flat into the slotground, as we just did with some 1,8mm windings on 45xx.
also 0,08mm kapton or the (not easy to use) nomex paper with 0,05mm can be a way for more.

there a more than one ways to reach a target and there are a lot mothers in the world having nice daughters than only kontronik!
there was also a lightweigt very low rpm 4220, but this motor was never available - only 3 prototypes have been built.
also with rs-e 378-20 or other good basics of the 4020size you can try the same.

Last edited by powercroco; 11-04-2014 at 12:18 AM..
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Old 11-03-2014, 02:21 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powercroco View Post
......the true opposite for P650 is the HK 4020 V3, not 4235!
Duh
I was simply showing with a picture what I meant with "in stead of going bigger, why not go smaller/lighter?" So in this picture is the big motor (overkill) vs the tiny motor.
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Old 11-03-2014, 03:02 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Default right!

for the normal pilot with no hardest 3D and speed interests it's the better way.
they NEVER will (can) use the potential of a "big block"!

btw. the biggest potential to spare weight is the battery.
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Old 11-03-2014, 03:08 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powercroco View Post
for the normal pilot with no hardest 3D and speed interests it's the better way.
they NEVER will (can) use the potential of a "big block"!

btw. the biggest potential to spare weight is the battery.
Yes I agree fully.
About the battery: that's why I use the Hacker Eco-X 5000 packs. Total weight of the E700 with that and P650 is 4728gr.
The motor already saved me 210gr. Going to 4500mAh packs will save another 100gr but I also loose about 30sec flight time.
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Old 11-03-2014, 03:43 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Is that when you calculate the loss in weight, or is that if you calculate your flying time with the same weight?

I'm really interested in your personal experience with flying "lighter".
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Old 11-03-2014, 03:46 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurens View Post
Is that when you calculate the loss in weight, or is that if you calculate your flying time with the same weight?

I'm really interested in your personal experience with flying "lighter".
It's not calculated: I also use gens Ace 4400mAh packs, which are a bit lighter but reduces flight time with roughly 30sec on a 6-6.5min flight.
I need to make more flights with the light setup, but up till now I like it. I came from ~5200gr initially so the weight gain is not exactly extreme.
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Old 11-03-2014, 03:52 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I would be really happy with a close to 10% weight reduction.

Quote:
for the normal pilot with no hardest 3D and speed interests it's the better way.
they NEVER will (can) use the potential of a "big block"!
I think thats the opposite in 3D. A good 3D pilot has pitch management under control. A beginning or just bad pilot will pull a lot of amps. A good motor will provide the excess power.
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Old 11-03-2014, 04:00 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurens View Post
I would be really happy with a close to 10% weight reduction.



I think thats the opposite in 3D. A good 3D pilot has pitch management under control. A beginning or just bad pilot will pull a lot of amps. A good motor will provide the excess power.
Well the 4235 was overkill for me: it simply runs at too low amps in my heli to make optimal use of it. It will perform in a better efficiency range if used in a heavier heli with higher head speed. Don't get me wrong: the heli felt really light and the monotone rpm no matter what I did was very nice but I simply wanted to try a different approach.
The P650 on the other hand has it maximum efficiency at relatively low amp draw. That's why I pushed the fill factor: to shift peak efficiency more towards the average amp draw I have.
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Old 11-03-2014, 04:08 AM   #18 (permalink)
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this is pure physics.

3D is a "function" of possible accelerations,
anyway in which direction.
and how hard accelerations are possible is a pure function of "power to weight" ratio.

anyway how you increase this this ratio you will get better acceleration.
to manage the highest possible ratio in the way to get out the possible win is, what only the best pilots are able to do.

so you can make the heli lighter or you can make the drive stronger.
the last way at the end will give you the better result - if you personally are able to use this power sensefull.
also with highest power you need an excellent pitch (and not only pitch, but all axis) management.

for the drive:
its the very best, to have the best efficiency at the range, you mostly fly.
so it depends on your style, which drive you need.
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Old 11-03-2014, 10:14 AM   #19 (permalink)
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You see clearly what I asked which wasnt about the magnets, though I appreciate that tidbit of info, and showing the bearing dimensions which means nothing about the quality of the bearings......
If you choose to avoid the direct question after you made and erased the statement it is okay.Just want to make sure youre being fair and honest

I definately care less about brand more than I do loose claims that havent been truly investigated...... If you didnt see it the first time which is impossible Ill ask you again.

What is the ABEC rating type and class of balls in each? If you do not know just say so. If you do not know you cannot make the claim that the 4020's are stronger or better. Naturally a 6mm shaft is not as strong as 8mm in the same material, but you said the bearings are stronger. I doubt very seriously theres anything special in a scorpion. Thats how the price point is made..... vs the higher end of things

The main thing is why cant Dekker recieve praise from others without negativity? Gosh you receive plenty along with plenty of self aggrandizing to go with it.

Id also like to know if you have something like this?

Click image for larger version

Name:	bearing roundness checker.JPG
Views:	246
Size:	64.7 KB
ID:	547076

I doubt it because it has to be made. My friend a mechanical engineer and tool maker made this to check the roundness. It is also noted when truly looking for good bearings you by and entire run then hand pick the best ones. I doubt very seriously scorpion along with many others do this so lets kill the noise.

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Old 11-03-2014, 10:25 AM   #20 (permalink)
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no, I cannot follow the sense of your question.
you are mixing several things.

bearing strenght is determined primary in static and dynamic loads - here in europe measured in N.
you can find it into every bearing table.

the manufacturing quality is a completely another thing and has nothing to do with the strenght of bearing.
here in europe we don't use ABEC but ISO 492 as we also use decimal system and mm......

everyone can decide, which quality of bearings he builds in into his tuning(!) motors.
what the manufacturer does, isn't important for a motor tuner.

Last edited by powercroco; 11-04-2014 at 12:53 AM..
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