Fun, Learning, Friendship and Mutual Respect START  HERE


Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Electronics Support > Electric Motors, Gearing, Speed Controls, Gyros, Receivers, and Other Electronics Discussion > Electric Motors Winding and Repair


Electric Motors Winding and Repair Electric Motors Winding and Repair Discussion


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-30-2015, 12:29 AM   #21 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 3,352
 

Join Date: Sep 2011
Default

IMHO it is the same and enough for me: same heli, same rpm, same flight style EQU more power, more flight time and more heat. The difference is big enough in all 3 aspects to be absolute in this case, and good enough for me.
But also if you look at it mathematically what you wrote is not alwsys correct.
__________________
2 X X7 | Scorpion 4525 Ultimate 4+6T YY / Xnove 4530 525 | scorpion Tribunus 200II ESC | Edge 713 | Logo 690SX | Pyro 440 7+8T YY | Castle 120HV | X3 | 4S | HW 50A V2 ESC | Scorpion 2221 2050KV 9T D | SK540 / Brain2 | Mks
omerco is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 09-30-2015, 09:19 AM   #22 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,371
 

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Research Triangle Park
Default

A fair scientific test has to have a control. You would need some type of steady state dyno or different loads to look at the motors heat output at the same output wattage.Seems intuitive to me that if you ask for more power out of the weaker of the two motors that the weaker one will certainly go up in operational temperatures. A fair test provides definitive answers nevertheless.

Even with a log to be fair they need to be compared at the same ambient temperature and wound for the same kv and with showing the higher amps draw the stronger motor should also show a higher acceleration to and or top speed with the same load to mean more power was actually delivered to the load otherwise its a less efficient motor or is this wrong?

Last edited by 1BOHO; 09-30-2015 at 01:55 PM..
1BOHO is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-30-2015, 11:57 PM   #23 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,371
 

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Research Triangle Park
Default

Im sure it been shown before but Here is a site with some good motor constant formulas and well thought out ideas about efficiency and how it varies with load voltage etc.

http://www.bavaria-direct.co.za/constants/#prettyPhoto
1BOHO is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-01-2015, 06:16 AM   #24 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 3,352
 

Join Date: Sep 2011
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1BOHO View Post
A fair scientific test has to have a control. You would need some type of steady state dyno or different loads to look at the motors heat output at the same output wattage.Seems intuitive to me that if you ask for more power out of the weaker of the two motors that the weaker one will certainly go up in operational temperatures. A fair test provides definitive answers nevertheless.

Even with a log to be fair they need to be compared at the same ambient temperature and wound for the same kv and with showing the higher amps draw the stronger motor should also show a higher acceleration to and or top speed with the same load to mean more power was actually delivered to the load otherwise its a less efficient motor or is this wrong?
Well - I'm a pilot and not a scientist, and if the results are better in every measurement than its enough for me.

I also use that site you posted a lot - and if you take the original pyro700 -45 with 32 MOhm IR and compare it there with the new 22 MOhm rewinded one (similar to Comp series) you can see there the results improve as well.
__________________
2 X X7 | Scorpion 4525 Ultimate 4+6T YY / Xnove 4530 525 | scorpion Tribunus 200II ESC | Edge 713 | Logo 690SX | Pyro 440 7+8T YY | Castle 120HV | X3 | 4S | HW 50A V2 ESC | Scorpion 2221 2050KV 9T D | SK540 / Brain2 | Mks
omerco is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-05-2015, 03:18 PM   #25 (permalink)
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jan 2015
Default

Hi Ron ,
only to stuff lots of copper in the statorslots will rise waight . Better to use the right motordesign that has the low resistance and waight less like the Lehner outrunner . Lets have a look at a Scorpion 7050/ 350 kv that has a duration power of 10 kw .A Lehner 7050 same kv has a duration power of 18 kw . To find a Lehner motor that match the Scorpion you need only a 7025 Lehner .The Scorpion 7050 waight 1700 g the Lehner 7025 only 1050 g . So the result is that a better thinking about realy high copperfilling and using a better statorshape will give much moore than stuffing big copperwire in a old style motordesign . And all this run at a higher motorefficancy as you show in #1 .

Happy Amps Christian
Ch.Lucas is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-05-2015, 09:26 PM   #26 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,371
 

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Research Triangle Park
Cool

Will Lehner sell a raw stack?
1BOHO is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-05-2015, 10:58 PM   #27 (permalink)
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jan 2015
Default

Hi 1BOHO ,

no , i will send you a e-mail .

Happy Amps
Christian
Ch.Lucas is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-06-2015, 07:53 AM   #28 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,371
 

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Research Triangle Park
Default

Hallo,

You dont have to Lucas, without assistance I have no real intentions with Lehner only curious read why.

For Americans is a 19%VAT. Then 1 euro = 1.12 Usd so alot of your cash goes to nothing. Look how. Its 989.00 Euros. So 1110.05 USD plus 19%VAT!!!!! man thats 210.91 plus the additional 121.05 difference thats 331.96 USD that goes to nothing... Thats a real problem for me. A person would rather have the 331.96 usd goto purchasing more motor not just be wasted in our struggling economy. While things are this way I really think only the wealthy will even consider. Most will pay the 999.00 flat and get the 15kw scorpion thats what a stock one is actually rated at. then use there saved 331.96 and put it towards special edition model a better rewind or a better ESC . Anything but waste it in a bunch of red tape. I personally cannot justify 331.00 dollars going to absolutely nothing. You get what you pay for but in these cases I get nothing for 331.00

Love the apparent quality of the products but for me too much money is wasted getting them here to the USA I'm afraid.

Last edited by 1BOHO; 10-06-2015 at 09:23 AM..
1BOHO is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-06-2015, 11:43 AM   #29 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,371
 

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Research Triangle Park
Default

Hi Ch. Lucas,
I see you are here. I have a question. What is meant by "pressed wire" on the Lehner site? Is that flat windings?
1BOHO is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-06-2015, 12:23 PM   #30 (permalink)
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jan 2015
Default

Hi,
this mean what it is . The coil is high compressed to geht high copperfilling ,no air . This are no plates and it is a very spezial process by Lehner .
Not every factory is holding a strong green garden dwarf in his backjard to fill the stators and it is not needed if it goes a easy way with better result .
Ch.Lucas is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-06-2015, 12:46 PM   #31 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 112
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Sep 2006
Default

Diy slotless inrunner, compressed ironless coils, Thomas Asschenbrenner, 2004/2005?

Some discussion, o.a. Christian, Thomas, Helmut Schenk
www.rclineforum.de/forum/thread.php?threadid=89559
edit: thread not available anymore



tooling

Last edited by ron_van_sommeren; 10-12-2015 at 08:22 AM..
ron_van_sommeren is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-06-2015, 04:55 PM   #32 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,371
 

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Research Triangle Park
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch.Lucas View Post
Hi,
this mean what it is . The coil is high compressed to geht high copperfilling ,no air . This are no plates and it is a very spezial process by Lehner .
Not every factory is holding a strong green garden dwarf in his backjard to fill the stators and it is not needed if it goes a easy way with better result .


Ron I got a URL not found error when I tried to visit the link.
1BOHO is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-06-2015, 05:27 PM   #33 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 112
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Sep 2006
Default

Bummer. And I cannot log in there anymore, it has been quite a while ago.
Maybe Christian can help out here?

Vriendelijke groeten Ron
ron_van_sommeren is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-06-2015, 11:54 PM   #34 (permalink)
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jan 2015
Default

Hi Ron ,
have looked at the forum but i can only see tread since 2002 and i think this was earlyer . Send a pm to Thomas Aschi as he had a website ,but all so i could not find it .
Ch.Lucas is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-07-2015, 12:51 AM   #35 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,371
 

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Research Triangle Park
Default


Hi Christian, Ron,

About materials
Have either of you any experience winding with litz wire or silver plated magnet wire? Also what about cobalt magnets.Is there an N52H neodymium available anywhere? Point me in the direction of useful information about stator design. There are also mechanical losses. What brand or manufacturer and class of bearings do you find best?

Last edited by 1BOHO; 10-07-2015 at 11:54 AM..
1BOHO is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-07-2015, 10:40 AM   #36 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,371
 

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Research Triangle Park
Default

please delete this post

Last edited by 1BOHO; 10-07-2015 at 03:22 PM..
1BOHO is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-07-2015, 01:50 PM   #37 (permalink)
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jan 2015
Default

Hi Ron ,
had a phoncall with Thomas ,he told me that when his provider goes down he has no other website with the motordesigns made . I will look with moore time at rc network .

1BOHO ,

busy day . The silver coated copperwire will be advanced for high frequenz electronics like inductiv heating and such things . For very spezial motors maybe good .And yes we try litzwire in high speed outrunner and multistrand wire ,that have less strands 5-8 strands to lower eddycurrent .
Bearing , i try from SKF Germany and from Cerobear ceramic ball with steel ring .
Ch.Lucas is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-07-2015, 03:25 PM   #38 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,371
 

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Research Triangle Park
Default

Thanks Ch.Lucas,
Without stepping on any ones toes.....
Is there a waste of power in a concentrated vs a sinusoidal distribution of the wind? Ive been reading but dont want to make any assumptions solely based on my readings. Here is a chat that suggest this. It seems like Lehner, Nue, Plettenburg and other high efficiency motors use distributed winding schemes. Since you are the "L" in LRK Im quite sure youve been exposed to numerous test and comparisons.

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/th...r-field.50891/

Im leaning towards the idea that an FOC or Sinusoidal drive would prefer the mmf produced by a sinusoidal distribution of the coils. Is this incorrect?

Last edited by 1BOHO; 10-07-2015 at 05:12 PM..
1BOHO is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-10-2015, 06:26 AM   #39 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 112
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Sep 2006
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1BOHO View Post
... Have either of you any experience winding with ...
I have never flown electric, never built/wound a motor. My last flight, Graupner Helimax + OS FSR50, was in 1990.
I only pass on information/links

Prettig weekend Ron
ron_van_sommeren is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-10-2015, 02:49 PM   #40 (permalink)
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jan 2015
Default

Hi 1BOHO ,

with a sinwave esc you can place loss from the motor in the esc . So less loss in the motor but higher los in the esc . I highpower electric drive the mmf diagram is messured and saved as a datafile that is then feed in the esc . With it the esc can now folow direct the mmf wave ,best way toget highest efficancy and control for electric drives .
The attatched pic show the rotorbell from Flyware with 10 pol system ,two strip are one pol .The 20 magnetstrip are placed equidistant so between one pol is a distance that lead to a lower peak induction moving over a statortooth with a result that the mmf has a moore rectangular wave form that is most used for modelmotor esc .
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	236
Size:	149.7 KB
ID:	613411  
Ch.Lucas is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply




Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the HeliFreak forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your REAL and WORKING email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself. Use a real email address or you will not be granted access to the site. Thank you.
Email Address:
Location
Where do you live? ie: Country, State, City or General Geographic Location please.
Name and Lastname
Enter name and last name here. (This information is not shown to the general public. Optional)
Helicopter #1
Enter Helicopter #1 type and equipment.
Helicopter #2
Enter Helicopter #2 type and equipment.
Helicopter #3
Enter Helicopter #3 type and equipment.
Helicopter #4
Enter Helicopter #4 type and equipment.

Log-in


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




Copyright © Website Acquisitions Inc. All rights reserved.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1