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Newbies: Tips and Information Section of HF, specifically for Passing along info to newcomers to the hobby. Setup, tweaking, orientation practice, etc.


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Old 11-16-2017, 12:49 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by toadiscoil View Post
I too agree that learning on a big heli is a big no-no. From the money aspect but also from the safety aspect. I think many people a long time in the hobby indeed had to learn on big helis so for them it is just natural to recommend this. Yes a big heli is actually easier to fly, yes a big heli is easier to fix due to bigger parts easier to see, yes a big heli is easier to see even if it gets a bit too far away.
But it is also a flying lawnmower that can cause significant damage to property and people and that can set you back a significant amount of dollars if crashed.
I think you contradict yourself.. Clearly it is perfectly possible to learn safely on a big heli. As you point out yourself, anyone who learned to fly helis 20+ years ago did it this way because that's the only way there was, and pretty much they all came through it with all limbs still attached.
If they could do it then with flybar helis with screaming nitro/glow engines and crude transmitters, no computer flight simulators etc then with modern FBL units with stabilisation and relatively user friendly electric power it must be even easier.

Of course the BIG caveat is that to learn safely on a large heli you need to do it with the help of a mentor, preferably in a club environment, just like most guys did 20+ years ago.

I think what i'm really saying is there is no 'one solution fits all' when it comes to learning. There are many ways that you can safely learn to fly a heli. Starting out with a micro heli but with no help is certainly one way to do it, but i'd argue possibly not the best way. As you point out from your own experience, starting off without help is always likely to be a painful process involving many crashes and lots of frustration regardless of what heli you fly.

My #1 piece of advice to any beginner would be 'find an experienced flying buddy or a club'. If you do that then you should be set for success.
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Old 11-16-2017, 01:15 PM   #62 (permalink)
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I believe there are many people (like me) who end up flying alone. That end up struggling to try to find resources to answer all these questions. And in the meantime getting frustrated and crashing a lot.

I actually joined a club. But last year? I went there once, and only to their fun fly. I just don't have the time. I end of flying Saturday early mornings to catch my local big park deserted and fly. Then off to family and life stuff.

I personally discourage learning on a 700 even with a mentor. Of course that's my personal opinion. Things are definitely not the same way as they were 20+ years ago. Today we have small competent helis and computer simulators. This can for sure bypass the benefit of having to learn on a big heli.

A 700 size heli, even a cheap one will cost easily $500 to $1500 to crash. Like it has been mentioned the K100 costs $100 and pennies to crash. A simulator costs $35 with a cheap USB controller and the free Heli-X. A Blade 230 S costs $300 ready to fly and each crash costs say $20 to maybe $50 if you really destroy it.

And the safety aspect. I insist on safety so much because I had a Blade 360 CFX hit me on the back. It was a wound that went through 3 layers of clothing and I didn't go get stitches although I should have. If I had learned on a 700 class heli instead I wouldn't be here.

If I were on an appropriate field and with the proper mentor still things can happen and go wrong. You can panic and things can go bad, very quickly. Only 5% of pilots in the world can probably save you from any situation if they are buddy-boxing you. You can minimize the risk by having the mentor go over the setup and all. But still the pilot is risking quite a bit by starting out big.

That is my thought process. Why risk it with a big heli if there are cheaper and safer alternatives. Can it be done? Sure, and it was done for many, many years. But today things are different.

But I agree completely there is no one solution for all. But I like to recommend the options that carry the less risk. Either the small heli or the sim routes or both but start small.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy_Old_Man View Post
I think you contradict yourself.. Clearly it is perfectly possible to learn safely on a big heli. As you point out yourself, anyone who learned to fly helis 20+ years ago did it this way because that's the only way there was, and pretty much they all came through it with all limbs still attached.
If they could do it then with flybar helis with screaming nitro/glow engines and crude transmitters, no computer flight simulators etc then with modern FBL units with stabilisation and relatively user friendly electric power it must be even easier.

Of course the BIG caveat is that to learn safely on a large heli you need to do it with the help of a mentor, preferably in a club environment, just like most guys did 20+ years ago.

I think what i'm really saying is there is no 'one solution fits all' when it comes to learning. There are many ways that you can safely learn to fly a heli. Starting out with a micro heli but with no help is certainly one way to do it, but i'd argue possibly not the best way. As you point out from your own experience, starting off without help is always likely to be a painful process involving many crashes and lots of frustration regardless of what heli you fly.

My #1 piece of advice to any beginner would be 'find an experienced flying buddy or a club'. If you do that then you should be set for success.
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Old 11-16-2017, 01:35 PM   #63 (permalink)
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I'd also not advise a 700 heli, even in a club environment.. But there are many options between micro and 700. The 450 to 500 range is a good compromise IMHO. These helis dont have to be expensive, in fact a decent 450 and even some 500's are cheaper than current higher end micro helis.

Personally i learned on a 450 with no help at all and i think during the entire learning process i had a couple of crashes due to 'pilot error' both quite minor.

Was this because I'm a gifted natural heli flyer?.... No, i wish it were It's because i was an experienced fixed wing flyer, and despite what some might tell you fixed wing experience helps A LOT. So not all heli beginners are the same, some bring previous 'different' but still relevant RC experience to the table. If i could go back in time and give my 'beginner self' some advice it would be to have went for a 500 rather than a 450.

I dont disagree with you though in that if you for whatever reason decide to learn alone and you have zero previous RC experience then a micro or at least 'mini' helis is the way to go. But my advice would be if at all possible dont do that, get some help.
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Old 11-16-2017, 01:43 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy_Old_Man View Post
I'd also not advise a 700 heli, even in a club environment.. But there are many options between micro and 700. The 450 to 500 range is a good compromise IMHO. These helis dont have to be expensive, in fact a decent 450 and even some 500's are cheaper than current higher end micro helis.

Personally i learned on a 450 with no help at all and i think during the entire learning process i had a couple of crashes due to 'pilot error' both quite minor.

Was this because I'm a gifted natural heli flyer?.... No, i wish it were It's because i was an experienced fixed wing flyer, and despite what some might tell you fixed wing experience helps A LOT. So not all heli beginners are the same, some bring previous different but still relevant RC experience to the table. If i could go back in time and give my 'beginner self' some advice it would be to have went for a 500 rather than a 450.

I dont disagree with you though in that if you for whatever reason decide to learn alone and you have zero previous RC experience then a micro or at least 'mini' helis is the way to go.
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Old 05-25-2019, 03:40 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Today I applied a tip from jrman83 great guy.

Bake your aluminum pieces to 350 for about 5 minutes to remove strong Loctite on radial bearings to replace when damaged. Just tap the bearings out with Allen keys and a hammer. Use aluminum foil to protect the ovenís tray of boiled Loctite and grease. Has saved me literally hundreds of dollars (unfortunately as those were due to crashes). Be careful with handling hot parts!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Old 11-14-2019, 11:24 AM   #66 (permalink)
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My experience with RC helicopter is unique and admittedly not advisable to any beginner to follow as I think it's a bad example. But I will just tell it anyway. I started toying with RC heli in 2011 with small 4-channel type (micro etc.) and graduated to 6-channel CP 450 size in a short period.

I was 56 then so it was a bit late to get into the hobby. But then there was autopilot systems (controller) such as Helicommand, Flymentor to shortcut the learning process of flying and I was also quite impatient to learn the hard way with the general controllers. I bought my first 6-channel CP heli (Belt CP) fitted with Flymentor autopilot system. I was able to fly circuit style in short time but then again I also sim a lot at home which helped too. Of course, my sight was never 3D but upright flying in circles (circuit) etc. After about 6 months of starting the hobby, I bought a 700 size heli (Trex 700 E V2) fitted with DJI Wookong H auto pilot system which just came into the market at that time. Along the way, I crashed many times as did everyone else even with the assistance of such self-leveling, altitude hold system. But it also saved me from crashing countless times.

So I was flying with the help of autopilot system right from the very beginning of starting the hobby and I am now stuck with these systems after all these years. I could probably fly in normal mode (without engaging Attitude mode) but don't want to take any chance except during spool up which is necessary with the system I use. But as soon as I am airborne, I switch to Atti mode (self-levelling) all the times.

Now a day, one can find a few controllers with autopilot systems in-built at much more reasonable price compared to when I started the hobby. I wished I had started like everyone else without the help of autopilot system. May be by now I can fly some 3D maneuvers like everyone else if I had started that way. I am now almost 65 now and still very much enjoy flying RC helis in my own limited ways. Cheers.
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Old 11-14-2019, 12:06 PM   #67 (permalink)
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I believe there is room for everyone on this hobby. Yes, many people call Rescue and Self-Leveling technologies "crutches" to learn to fly and maybe that is correct. But each one has different needs and can enjoy the hobby differently. I am glad you shared your story. You certainly have a very nice fleet from your signature and you keep enjoying the hobby which is in the end what it's all about

Now hit the sim hard and turn off that self-level

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittiwat1 View Post
My experience with RC helicopter is unique and admittedly not advisable to any beginner to follow as I think it's a bad example. But I will just tell it anyway. I started toying with RC heli in 2011 with small 4-channel type (micro etc.) and graduated to 6-channel CP 450 size in a short period.

I was 56 then so it was a bit late to get into the hobby. But then there was autopilot systems (controller) such as Helicommand, Flymentor to shortcut the learning process of flying and I was also quite impatient to learn the hard way with the general controllers. I bought my first 6-channel CP heli (Belt CP) fitted with Flymentor autopilot system. I was able to fly circuit style in short time but then again I also sim a lot at home which helped too. Of course, my sight was never 3D but upright flying in circles (circuit) etc. After about 6 months of starting the hobby, I bought a 700 size heli (Trex 700 E V2) fitted with DJI Wookong H auto pilot system which just came into the market at that time. Along the way, I crashed many times as did everyone else even with the assistance of such self-leveling, altitude hold system. But it also saved me from crashing countless times.

So I was flying with the help of autopilot system right from the very beginning of starting the hobby and I am now stuck with these systems after all these years. I could probably fly in normal mode (without engaging Attitude mode) but don't want to take any chance except during spool up which is necessary with the system I use. But as soon as I am airborne, I switch to Atti mode (self-levelling) all the times.

Now a day, one can find a few controllers with autopilot systems in-built at much more reasonable price compared to when I started the hobby. I wished I had started like everyone else without the help of autopilot system. May be by now I can fly some 3D maneuvers like everyone else if I had started that way. I am now almost 65 now and still very much enjoy flying RC helis in my own limited ways. Cheers.
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Old 11-14-2019, 12:18 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Self levelling is a game changer for beginners. My flying buddy started out less than two years ago using a Spirit FBL on a Trex 470. He had a little previous experience with a Honeybee fixed pitch. I helped him set it up with different degrees of self levelling on a switch:
1 Co-axial
2 Stability Acro
3 No stability

He started out in the co-axial mode but moved on to 'acro stability within a few weeks. After a few months he was flying without stability 99% of the time, though even now he still often uses stability mode during landing (though he can land perfectly fine without it).

In all that time I dont think he's had a single crash that was pure pilot error. So it can be done without all the pain that many people seem to think is inevitable, if you use technology and have a little guidance.

PS....He will be maidening his new Kraken this coming weekend and i'm sure will do it all himself, other than maybe let me give the heli a quick check over prior to flight.
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Old 11-14-2019, 12:53 PM   #69 (permalink)
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I agree it could be a good way to get started as a tool to learn. Just like crashing little pixels over and over again on the simulator. I believe the fact we see a ton of pilots smacking their stuff around is in big part thanks to the simulators.

I think that many people who start out with Blade realize that their implementation of self-level is less than perfect and that the helis actually fly way better without it. So they follow the "traditional" route of crash-n-learn.

Myself, I had my crash ratio due to pilot error significantly reduced. My crashes have been in a vast majority issues with tuning or failures. The big jump for me was focusing on sim training during my "off-season" of cold weather (I don't handle that weather very well) and seeing my skills jump significantly (well from crashing all over the place to actually lifting off and landing consistently).

It would be a good thread for beginners to provide them options of reliable self-level setups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy_Old_Man View Post
Self levelling is a game changer for beginners. My flying buddy started out less than two years ago using a Spirit FBL on a Trex 470. He had a little previous experience with a Honeybee fixed pitch. I helped him set it up with different degrees of self levelling on a switch:
1 Co-axial
2 Stability Acro
3 No stability

He started out in the co-axial mode but moved on to 'acro stability within a few weeks. After a few months he was flying without stability 99% of the time, though even now he still often uses stability mode during landing (though he can land perfectly fine without it).

In all that time I dont think he's had a single crash that was pure pilot error. So it can be done without all the pain that many people seem to think is inevitable, if you use technology and have a little guidance.

PS....He will be maidening his new Kraken this coming weekend and i'm sure will do it all himself, other than maybe let me give the heli a quick check over prior to flight.
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Old 11-14-2019, 01:02 PM   #70 (permalink)
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I re-started the hobby about 4 years ago and self level was something that let me learn without crashing constantly kept me interested instead of frustrated. I slowly weaned myself off it which was easier on the sim than IRL. I have had less than 10 crashes so far which required repairing something broken and some of those were mechanical failures. It definitely is different learning now than when I tried before back in the 80's. I was also lucky to avoid all the "bad" Blade helis that preceded the 230S.

Many of the micros I used learning could be crashed over and over with little or no damage like the Nano and K110. Those weren't around back then either.
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Old 11-14-2019, 01:05 PM   #71 (permalink)
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I think that many people who start out with Blade realize that their implementation of self-level is less than perfect and that the helis actually fly way better without it. So they follow the "traditional" route of crash-n-learn.
Self levelling with Blade copters in my experience is FAR from perfect.

I trashed my first 230s on the maiden flight attempted lift off due to the notorious right-roll of death while in Stability. I turned the darned thing off, never flew with it again and never looked back.

Blade have had plenty of chances to get it right and still manage not only to screw it up every time but seem to be hell bent on including it on everything new they release.

I don't know if you noticed but they just retired the 330x (successor to the venerable 450x) and released the 330s. Guess what the difference is? Yeh, they enabled Stability.

Keep it Blade, just keep it!
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Old 11-14-2019, 01:16 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Unfortunately I hate sims. I've tried them all but I just get bored after a few minutes. It's just not the same feeling as flying a real RC heli. Flying on the sims with mates, the few times I've tried it makes it a bit more tolerable but i usually and up just messing around and not learning anything.

Maybe simming in VR might be more appealing?.. I've never tried it so far.

Each to their own of course. I've actually got a lot of respect for guys dedicated enough to spend a lot of time on the sim. I dont argue with the view that it works as a learning tool, if you can tolerate it.
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Old 11-14-2019, 01:53 PM   #73 (permalink)
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I learned to fly on Phoenix Sim.

To be more accurate, I first learned to hover a CP in my back garden with a used mCPX which I initially flew into the fence and crashed so many times.

I was then flying a 200srx and more importantly a 250 Tarot Quad in the park which taught me my orientations, along side taking weekly lessons with Capt Jac's Phoenix Flight School.

Progress was slow; being an old guy that old muscle memory came very slowly and I really had to work for it but I got there.

I still fly in Phoenix Sim far more often than IRL. It is far easier to fire that up than charge a bunch of batteries and get down to the park only to find it is busy and full of people walking into the flight path or interrupting my concentration to ask the usual "how much, how fast, how high" questions.

Not the same I agree, but more accessible for me, cheaper to crash (reset button) and I can keep in practice and push the envelop without fear of expensive repairs.

Still love flying my fleet which is always expanding with four more used copters added this last month; two more Blade AH-64s to go in plastic 1:48 scale shells, a 450x v2 and a 300x.
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Old 11-15-2019, 12:32 AM   #74 (permalink)
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I learned to fly on Phoenix Sim.

To be more accurate, I first learned to hover a CP in my back garden with a used mCPX which I initially flew into the fence and crashed so many times.

I was then flying a 200srx and more importantly a 250 Tarot Quad in the park which taught me my orientations, along side taking weekly lessons with Capt Jac's Phoenix Flight School.

Progress was slow; being an old guy that old muscle memory came very slowly and I really had to work for it but I got there.

I still fly in Phoenix Sim far more often than IRL. It is far easier to fire that up than charge a bunch of batteries and get down to the park only to find it is busy and full of people walking into the flight path or interrupting my concentration to ask the usual "how much, how fast, how high" questions.

Not the same I agree, but more accessible for me, cheaper to crash (reset button) and I can keep in practice and push the envelop without fear of expensive repairs.

Still love flying my fleet which is always expanding with four more used copters added this last month; two more Blade AH-64s to go in plastic 1:48 scale shells, a 450x v2 and a 300x.
Like you, I sim more than flying in real life simply because it's more convenient overall (at home versus driving in congested traffic to the field to fly). Funny, with the auto-pilot controllers and my non-3D style of flying, I still sim a lot - mainly to keep my brain/fingers some coordination practice for the real life flying. As I am fully retired, I have the advantage of going to the field on weekdays when there is hardly anybody around and I almost have the field to myself. I especially avoid weekends.

To me, one advantage in having many helis is that you don't get bored flying the same routine every time (no new 3D moves to master) as you have to always adjust to each heli's different characteristics (to some this could be a disadvantage). I make sure that I fly them all at least once in a while and some get more airtime than others. Have fun flying.
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Old 11-15-2019, 04:44 AM   #75 (permalink)
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I believe there is room for everyone on this hobby. Yes, many people call Rescue and Self-Leveling technologies "crutches" to learn to fly and maybe that is correct. But each one has different needs and can enjoy the hobby differently. I am glad you shared your story. You certainly have a very nice fleet from your signature and you keep enjoying the hobby which is in the end what it's all about

Now hit the sim hard and turn off that self-level
Thank you. That's is a sensible suggestion. I've asked a guy at the hobby shop to fit Beast X in my Trex 450 L to try without the help of autopilot. Let's see how it goes. If I crash, at least the repair cost will not be too much. For the others, since I already have the Naza H/Wookong H fitted in almost all of them, I'll keep using them for the peace of mind.

Everybody's objective of flying is different. Some may want to progress in their 3D skill, some may have a more modest goal, like me. Despite this, I enjoy the hobby very much and have been at it for the past 8 years, off and on. Cheers.
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Old 11-15-2019, 04:54 AM   #76 (permalink)
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Can you not just switch the Autopilot off rather than go to the expense of replacing the Flight Controller?

And as you have all said, each to their own; whatever flying style and whatever your level of skill and aspirations the thing is to just enjoy it!

In Phoenix Sim, I am still getting to grips with inverted flight after trying for several years now. I can do it but it is not instinctive and I always end up crashing sooner or later. Not ready to do it IRL and that is no problem as far as I am concerned.

I am not really interested in 3D, at least as far as all the zipping and zapping about is concerned, but I do want to keep challenging myself and improve my flying ability. There are some manouvers I would like to learn, but the journey is what it is all about for me.
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Old 11-15-2019, 05:14 AM   #77 (permalink)
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Can you not just switch the Autopilot off rather than go to the expense of replacing the Flight Controller?

And as you have all said, each to their own; whatever flying style and whatever your level of skill and aspirations the thing is to just enjoy it!

In Phoenix Sim, I am still getting to grips with inverted flight after trying for several years now. I can do it but it is not instinctive and I always end up crashing sooner or later. Not ready to do it IRL and that is no problem as far as I am concerned.

I am not really interested in 3D, at least as far as all the zipping and zapping about is concerned, but I do want to keep challenging myself and improve my flying ability. There are some manouvers I would like to learn, but the journey is what it is all about for me.
I happen to have the Microbeast X Plus lying around and have heard good feedback about it. Besides, I run out of Naza H for my smallest heli in the fleet and don't want to invest in another autopilot system. You are right, I can always switch the Naza H to normal mode and be on my own. But for the bigger helis, I don't want to take any chance.

Right now, I'm learning to fly backward. It's not hard with the auto pilot switched on. May be later, I'll learn to fly backward in circle but not in a hurry.
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:57 AM   #78 (permalink)
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What are your thoughts on beginners using micros like the new BL2? I've flown a ton of fixed wing (pattern, acro competition), fixed pitch helis waaaay back (Shuttle Z days) and now quads (racing). I hear some say "get a micro and learn on that with a sim" and others saying "450 class and sim". I have neXt that I've been practicing on a lot and probably picking up a 450 class this weekend, but are micros still useful or no? If so, which micro?? BL2? TREX 150? something else?

Thanks for the help, I appreciate it.
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Old 12-06-2019, 08:40 AM   #79 (permalink)
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Hi there,

Please note this is my personal opinion. I have a love/hate relationship with micros. I own a Blade Nano S2 and an Align Trex 150X.

At the beginning I loved the Nano. It was awesome to just charge and go out on the backyard to get in some flight time. I crashed it many, many times and only after a while I started to have issues with it that needed repairs. I changed the frame on it and it was stupid easy even with the tiny screws. But then after a while I realized that I could not keep progressing with the Nano. It lacked the precision of larger models and while I can easily do some things on the sim or on my larger models, I could not do them on the Nano. I came to understand that this tiny micro did not have enough power to get myself out of trouble. (However it is the first heli I dared to do my first upright nose-in static hovers and piro hovers).

Now, that is an evident issue of lack of collective management. I have seen pros fly this thing and it can do anything you throw at it. BUT you need to have the skills to do it. So instead of having a heli that helped me progress, I noticed I needed to have a higher skill level to fly it properly. Which defeated the purpose I had it for as it had a very evident gap that I couldn't fill.

The Align 150X, now THAT is a machine that has POWER. With the size and the robust construction, actual non-linear servos, CNC aluminum pieces, and overall how the thing is built it is amazing. It is the only helicopter I have been able to do the "disc out" or what I call "inverted" tail-down funnels in real life. It is really powerful and although not as precise as a larger model, pretty decent. The wild headspeed, small size and propensity to be moved easier by wind is what causes it to be more unstable than bigger models. Also of course you can't compare the electronics on a bigger FBL unit, more powerful servos, etc., than what the 150X has. Regardless that machine is indeed something I can defintitely practice on whatever I throw at it. Downside of this is it won't get away unharmed from most crashes like the S2. Although it won't be expensive to fix, it is not as easy on the wallet as the S2. Of course nowhere near a 450 class machine.

So my point is, what you need is entirely YOUR personal need. Say if you are just getting started trying to get a hold of upright orientations, static all orientation hover and piros, circuits and figure 8's then I think the sim and the S2 could be your friends for sure. After you have gained certain competence on this (on my 4 years flying I still think I have not achieved full all orientation competence), that is after your crash ratio has reduced and you are landing safely more often than not, then I think you can move on to a 450. Indeed as you move up in size helis are much easier to control. That is a fact. But it is also a fact they increase in cost to buy and maintain and increase the risk to property, people and yourself. That's why when you are just getting started simulator time and a practically indestrucible small heli can help you a ton.

However, if you are past the initial stage and want to move into simple 3D or even if you want to start moving up to inverted or backwards flight, you may want to go with something else. I noticed that when I was starting to learn inverted/backwards flight and tic tocs that the S2 just didn't cut it. It was much easier for me to go out to the park with the 150X and practice that. But then I crashed it, wrecked the tail motor and it's sitting there. It doesn't help I crashed the 500 and 570 so I had to save up quite a bit of time and put priority on those for now.

I re-read the post and realized you were asking about the BL2. I don't have any experience with it but it is the size of a 150X, I believe. I think it may be probably not as powerful as the 150X but may be cheaper to repair. I don't really know but if indeed repairs are cheaper than the 150X and has better performance than the S2 sounds like it could be the best of both worlds, that is an excellent middle ground. But if you feel confident enough on basic orientations and have a low crash ratio, the 450 will definitely perform better. Just again think what you can comfortably afford and where you feel you are on your skill level to make the appropriate decisions. Regardless, the sim (as a training tool, not as a real life flight replacement or video gaming fun) is ALWAYS your friend.

Hope it helps.

Cheers!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy_guy View Post
What are your thoughts on beginners using micros like the new BL2? I've flown a ton of fixed wing (pattern, acro competition), fixed pitch helis waaaay back (Shuttle Z days) and now quads (racing). I hear some say "get a micro and learn on that with a sim" and others saying "450 class and sim". I have neXt that I've been practicing on a lot and probably picking up a 450 class this weekend, but are micros still useful or no? If so, which micro?? BL2? TREX 150? something else?

Thanks for the help, I appreciate it.
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Old 12-06-2019, 05:24 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Wow, thanks a bunch for your input, I really appreciate it. Sim is for sure something I'm doing, I was hoping to get a heli that I could practice what I learn on the sim without having to go out to a field to fly. Thus the appeal of the smaller helis, ones I can fly indoors or in my yard (which is fairly big).
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