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Old 12-14-2015, 04:41 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default GAUI X5 + VX1n: Nick Troubles

with vx1n v3.0 i had troubles with nick on my gaui x5. then i changed to vstabi and the problems are gone.
now with v4.0 i would try it again on my gaui x5.

the piro consistency in forward flight is now great, the pro rate is constant.
but the problems on nick are still present. in fff the heli has the tendence to pitch up and still worse, if i pull only a little nick, the heli makes a turn stop.
you can hear it on the sounds of the blades, that there is far too much cyclic nick.
also in big loopings, it's not possible to make a constant circle.

on my jr vibe e12 (f3c) the vx1n works fine, the nick isn't perfect but ok.

GAUI X5 Setup:
- TS-Servo GUEC GS-503 HV Brushless Digital Servo (7.4V)
- Mainblades EDGE 523mm FBL
- Damper Rubber (75 Shore)

VX1n Setup:
Agility 45%
Style 65%
Gain 42%
Mid Agility 20%
Coll Boost 0%
Pitch Up Comp 90%
Ele Precomp 24%
Cyclic Resp 60%
Cyclic Symtry +5%
Cyclic Decay 0%
Cyclic Expo -25%
Cyclic D/band 5μs
Advanced PID
I Gain 45%
P Gain 40%
Feed Forward 8.0░
D Elevator 90%
D Aileron 5%
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Old 12-14-2015, 06:54 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Pitch up comp set to 90 seems really high. Have you tried it at 10? My first thought is that it may be over-compensating.
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Old 12-14-2015, 07:10 AM   #3 (permalink)
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i have tried different setups and played with the parameters
- elev precomp
-> 8%: not flyable
-> 30%: better, but bad side effects on other moves

- pitch up comp:
-> 60% - 90%: no big difference

the problems cann't be solved with the parameters, something else doesn't match with X5 and VX1n.

we have two X5 with different servos, mainblades, formula head - but both helis have the same behavior with fff and nick.

we have also tried different fbl systems and that's the result of the nick troubles:
- mini vstabi -> good
- spirit -> very good
- 3digi -> good

so it cann't be only the X5 mechanical setup.

johann
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Old 12-14-2015, 08:09 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Raise your main gain. If that's not possible because of wobbles at hover then try different blades. I had a set of Zeals on a heli that made it porpus no matter what. Got a different brand of blades and it flys much better now
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Old 12-14-2015, 03:10 PM   #5 (permalink)
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What is the amount of cyclic pitch and is d elevator 90 normal because its high are elevator tictocs correct?
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Old 12-15-2015, 12:51 AM   #6 (permalink)
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i don't fly tictocs ;-)
pitch range is -12░/+12░.
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Old 12-15-2015, 03:19 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Hi Johann, what do you mean by 'nick', that's not a term I've heard before in regards to RC helicopters.
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Old 12-15-2015, 05:24 AM   #8 (permalink)
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it's the german term of elevator.

us / german
elevator = nick
aileron = roll


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Old 12-15-2015, 12:26 PM   #9 (permalink)
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How much elevator pitch do you have during setup, and how much total pitch do you have in setup with full cyclic + pitch.

I've just got back from a work trip, but have some ideas. I'll fire up Spartan Studio on my computer tomorrow to check some settings and get back to you.
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Old 12-16-2015, 01:16 AM   #10 (permalink)
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VX1n Setup:
Max Pos Collective 116% (+14░)
Max Neg Collective 120% (-14░)
Ail 8 degrees 92%
Ele 8 degrees 92%
Cyclic Limit 12░

the max pitch of +14░ is used only in autorotation - for acrobatics the max pitch is 12░.

i have to measure the pitch value by full cyclic + full pitch.
the 'elevator pitch' is 8░ by 92% (collective pitch 0░).
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Old 12-16-2015, 02:29 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Ok, I'm back home now and can look at some settings, but after reading your original post again it sounds like this is mainly a problem in fast flight, or when you're in a loop pulling a lot of collective.

I wonder if this is actually an issue of hitting the stall angle for the blades, and whether your vBar settings were just running slightly less overall pitch by default (which could relate to the cyclic ring taper setting on the vortex).

If this is only happening in forward flight, there are two things that would be useful to test. The first is to reduce your maximum collective by a degree or two. The second would be to increase your headspeed a little.

If the behaviour goes away with those changes it would help confirm if this is actually an aerodynamic thing, with the root cause being too much pitch during this type of flight. And if we can confirm that it shouldn't be too hard to then find a solution.

But you also have a lot of the advanced settings that are a lot higher than the defaults, and if you've adjusted those trying to troubleshoot this it may be worth going back to the defaults on a lot of these until you get to the bottom of this:

The ones I'm thinking could be relevant are:
- Elevator precomp - up to 24 from the default of 8
- I gain up to 45 from the default of 35
- Feed forward up to 8 from 7
- D elevator up to 90 from 60
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Old 12-16-2015, 03:39 AM   #12 (permalink)
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yes, it's a problem with little elevator input in fast flight or for example in a loop with a lot of collective pitch (12░).

that's a new very interesting approach: an issue of hitting the stall angle for the blades.

next i will do
- set the Elevator precomp, I gain, Feed forward and D elevator to defaults
- set max collective to 10░
- test different headspeeds 1850rpm - 1950rpm

i have changed the mainblades from edge 523mm to rail blades 615mm, but not yet tested.
the next test flights can be done on thursday...

@myxiplx: thank's for your support!
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Old 12-16-2015, 04:25 AM   #13 (permalink)
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You need to increase the Style if you want it to hold better. Perhaps this isn't obvious but the higher the Style the more robotic the control system becomes and thus it has more control of the heli.
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Old 12-16-2015, 05:45 AM   #14 (permalink)
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i have played with Style - with higher Style it's a little better, but this isn't the solution of the problem.

a) if I pull soft elevator up in (fast) forward flight, the blades make short fluttering sound and the heli makes a abrupt 90░ turn
b) pitch pumps in (fast) forward flight causes serious dolphin moves
c) it isn't possible to get round, continuous loops or turns
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Old 12-16-2015, 06:28 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Heh, I was thinking of suggesting increasing the style too.

But that fluttering sound and abrupt turn does make me wonder if the blades may be stalling, it sounds like retreating blade stall (RBS) to me.

I'm going to suggest tackling your problems one at a time. The forward flight one sounds like a stall, so more headspeed or less pitch should help there. And that may also be the problem in your loops.

Once we get that sorted, the dolphin in fff could be a few things. The typical advice would be to lower the head gain, but in your case I think the high elev precomp and those other settings may well be affecting this.

My feeling is that if we solve the mechanical stalling it's going to be worth you going back to default settings on a few things and starting the tuning from scratch. I think the adjustments you've made to try to solve this elevator issue may be causing problems elsewhere in your flying.
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Old 12-16-2015, 06:33 AM   #16 (permalink)
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PS. Changing the main blades could completely change the behaviour too. You may need to lower the main gain, and the stall point could be totally different.
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Old 12-16-2015, 08:13 AM   #17 (permalink)
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ok, thanks.

i will do some flights tomorrow or friday:
- set the Elevator precomp, I gain, Feed forward and D elevator to defaults
- set max collective to 10░
- test different (higher) headspeeds 1850rpm - 1950rpm

with a lower elev precomp the dolphin effect increases. but you are right, we have first to eliminate the rbs or what ever.
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Old 12-16-2015, 11:04 AM   #18 (permalink)
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If an X5 is the size I think it is, roughly the same size as my Align 550, on which I run 520mm blades, I would have thought those were fairly low head speeds. I see it is that size now, having checked that you are running 523mm blades.

I'm running my 550, 520 blades, at 2200, and sometimes 2400 if I want to bang it around a bit.

Are you wanting to run low head speeds for long flight times? I can comfortably get 5 minutes at 2200.

Just curious, especially if you want to fly fast. One thing compromises another.

On another note, the only time I've ever had an issue with blades that I just didn't like, was when I treated myself to a set of edge blades. Somehow everything about the few flights I had with them felt unstable. Can't exactly tell you why, but they didn't last long before I crashed them, and I don't crash often. Not unheard of to go a whole year with hundreds of flights without crashing the 550 at all. Those lasted a couple of flights. Go figure.

I'll follow this with interest.

Good luck with your tests and the ideas from myxplx and Angelos.
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Old 12-16-2015, 12:00 PM   #19 (permalink)
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That's a good point Sutty makes. 1850rpm on 523mm blades is pretty low, and the lower your headspeed the easier it is to get RBS.

I assume you're running the same headspeed as you did with vBar, which would mean its possible to tune with settings, but a higher headspeed would probably solve it very easily.
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Old 12-16-2015, 01:37 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sutty View Post
If an X5 is the size I think it is, roughly the same size as my Align 550, on which I run 520mm blades, I would have thought those were fairly low head speeds. I see it is that size now, having checked that you are running 523mm blades.

I'm running my 550, 520 blades, at 2200, and sometimes 2400 if I want to bang it around a bit.

Are you wanting to run low head speeds for long flight times? I can comfortably get 5 minutes at 2200.

Just curious, especially if you want to fly fast. One thing compromises another.

On another note, the only time I've ever had an issue with blades that I just didn't like, was when I treated myself to a set of edge blades. Somehow everything about the few flights I had with them felt unstable. Can't exactly tell you why, but they didn't last long before I crashed them, and I don't crash often. Not unheard of to go a whole year with hundreds of flights without crashing the 550 at all. Those lasted a couple of flights. Go figure.

I'll follow this with interest.

Good luck with your tests and the ideas from myxplx and Angelos.
I'm totally with Sutty on this, I was shocked at those head speeds and that could be a major contributor. I run a 6s 550 and swing 560mm Rotortechs at 2200-2360 rpm, which is very average. As well, as soon as I put the Rotortechs on the odd pitchy behavior in FFF completely went away. Definitely food for thought especially if you have different blades available, for they are NOT all the same!

Steve
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