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Lama V3/V4 and Kob E-Sky Lama V3 and V4 and Kob


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Old 04-08-2008, 12:54 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Flight testing CNC/upgrades for the Lamas

As I’m a retired old fart, I probably have more time to putz around with my helis than a lot of the guys on this forum. So I decided to spend a chunk of this spare time on thoroughly testing as many of the CNC parts as I could.

By the way, CNC stands for Computer Numeric Control. It’s not a brand name or a trademark, it simply means that the part is milled by a computer-controlled machine. Specifically a controller that uses G-code instructions, but that’s a whole ‘nother story.

Over the last couple of weeks I’ve taken 2 brand new Lama 2 V3 helis and added upgrade parts to them one upgrade at a time. When I was completely finished with the first one, I started all over on the second one. This way I could tell if a result was just a fluke or if the result was repeatable on another heli. I love to tinker with the helis as much as I love to fly them, so this has been great fun for me. I hope some of the things I found will help other guys on the forum.

BOX STOCK:





Both Lamas flew beautifully right out of the box. I’ve been flying for a while so I didn’t have to learn how to fly them and you should take that into account when reading this. I was able to take off and hover both Lamas using only the throttle. I don’t know if they really test fly Lamas at the factory, but these 2 were perfectly balanced and setup. I don’t know if my older Lamas were like this because I didn’t know how to fly when I first bought them and I’m not sure what was the helis fault and what was pilot error back then. I did take a fella who has never had any RC experience, instructed him in the use of the throttle and he was also able to lift and hover using only the throttle. I should point out that all the flying involved in this post was done in a large gymnasium so there were no air currents to toss the Lamas around like there would be in a room in the house.

XTREME BLADES: These are the labels from the blades I used –




The Xtreme blades are much harder to break than the stock ones, which is why most people buy them, however they do have an effect on the flight characteristics of the Lamas. The stock Lamas have very “soft” flight controls. That is, it takes a fairly large control movement held for a moment or two to affect the Lama flight. This is good for learning as it makes the heli very stable and requires deliberate action to move it from a hover. With the Xtreme blades the flight controls are a little “harder” – they don’t require as great a movement and the heli responds to the movement noticeably quicker. They are also a little quieter than the stock blades. The Xtreme blades are “plug and play”, you can put them on in place of the stock blades and fly immediately without having to reset anything. If you are a brand new noob, you may have trouble with the increased responsiveness of the Xtreme blades. Pilots with a little experience will probably prefer the Xtreme blades.

CNC BLADE HOLDERS: I have tried them all including the red ones, dark purple ones, light purple ones and the expensive Xtreme ones. They are all trouble except for these –




Except for the Xtreme Production holders in the above picture, they all were difficult to assemble and true up. Over the course of an hour or so of flight time the mount for the ball for the flybar link either rotated up or broke. Locktite did not prevent the rotation of the mount. See this link for pictures of the failures.

http://www.heliguy.com/Forum/cnc-upper-blade-holder-problems-t16677,highlight,cnc.html

The Xtreme blade holders worked perfectly and I had no problems. They are not “plug and play” though. The length of the flybar link will have to be adjusted and the swash plate will need to be leveled. With these adjustments made, there were no flight control problems and the Xtreme blade holders had no discernable effect on the Lama’s flight characteristics. They didn’t make it fly better and they didn’t make it fly worse. The only reason to add them to your Lama is because they look much better than the stock ones. (Unless you're flying outside, more about this below)

UPGRADE INNER SHAFT: Tried them all, and again, except for the Xtreme one pictured here, they were all troublesome.





The Xtreme inner shaft fit perfectly. However it is not “plug and play” as the length of the flybar link will need to be adjusted. The Xtreme inner shaft is longer between the posts for the blade holders and the bottom of the head.





This moves the top blades up about 5mm and may help to prevent blades strikes during large control movements. Other than possibly preventing some blade strikes it had no discernable effect on the Lama’s flight characteristics. It is handy though, as it prevents the flybar from popping off and disappearing during a “hard landing”.

The others all needed filing and fitting of the top cap to allow free movement of the stock flybar. The dark purple ones required washers (not supplied with it) to be fitted to take the slop out of the blade holder mounting. It was also too long requiring an extra bearing to be fitted on the top of the outer shaft. The lighter purple ones fit ok but took more fussing to get the stock flybar to fit properly.

UPGRADE SWASH PLATE: I tried the light purple ones, the dark purple ones and the naturally finished ones. I had no trouble with any of them. They all fit and they all were more robust than the stock Lama swash plate. Of course they have to be carefully leveled before flight. They had no discernable effect on the Lama’s flight characteristics, but they do not come apart in flight as the stock Lama ones are known to do.

XTREME MOTORS: These are the motors I tested –





I actually switched motors back and forth between stock and Xtreme a couple of times to make sure I was actually seeing a difference in flight characteristics caused by the motors. It is apparent that the Xtreme motors are more responsive to throttle input than the stock motors. That is, if you need to put in an additional ¼ inch of throttle to gain altitude from a hover, with the Xtreme motors you would need a much smaller movement of the throttle for the same effect. The difference is subtle and a new pilot may not notice it, but a pilot with a little experience will notice it immediately. In combination with Xtreme blades the Lama is noticeably more responsive than stock, requiring smaller control inputs. The Xtreme motors are noisier than the stock motors. After timing several flights I did not see any difference in flight times between the stock and the Xtreme motors when used without any other upgrades.

FLIGHT TIMES: Over the course of the testing I recorded the length of each flight. I called the flight done when the Lama began to require increased throttle. Though not precise to the second, it’s the way I normally fly and the results of multiple flights with the same parts/setup were surprisingly consistent. It became pretty apparent that the only individual item that noticeably increased flight times was a better battery pack. However even with a better battery pack, flight time fell off rapidly at about the 10 minute mark and I believe that the motors get hot enough by that point that they increase current draw rather quickly. One thing I found interesting is that continuous forward flight results in the longest flights times. I guess that makes sense in that during forward flight the rotor disks produce additional lift and the motors get more airflow so they run a little cooler. The combination that consistently provided the longest flight times was an otherwise stock Lama with Xtreme motors, Xtreme blades and a battery pack with a higher C rating. Adding anything else resulted in either shorter flight times or no consistent change. The longest flight with this combo was 14 minutes, the shortest was 11.


SUMMARY/RECOMMENDATIONS: In reviewing this post I noticed that it may seem like an advertisement for Xtreme brand parts, but that's just the way the testing turned out, I don't work for them, honest!

For a noob just learning to fly, the box stock Lama is the most stable configuration. Adding anything other than stock replacement parts will only throw the setup off or make it more difficult for a noob to control.

Once a noob is able to hover successfully, the first upgrade should be the Xtreme blades. Over the long run they will save money on broken blades. Once used to them, the noob will have more precise control of the Lama.

Any other upgrade is going to change the setup of the stock Lama and require the noob to disassemble the Lama and make adjustments to the setup.

Once able to hover and move around “tail-in” the two upgrades I would recommend at this point would be a CNC swash plate as the stock Lama one is a weak point and an Extreme inner shaft to prevent loss of the flybar.

From here on the upgrades are primarily cosmetic for the indoor flyer. The exception to this applies to flying outdoors in a breeze. Nothing you can do to the Lama will ever make it fly in a wind like a heavier single rotor heli. Flying it in any breeze requires a high level of skill. However adding the extended inner shaft and the Xtreme blade holders will help as they raise the upper blades and make all the blade assemblies more rigid which will reduce “coneing” and thus help reduce blade strikes. Even with these upgrades, you will still need a high level of skill with the Lama to fly in anything other than a whisper of a breeze. The main reason for this is that the upper rotor disk is controlled by the attitude of the flybar and will always create drag in forward flight. This drag fights against the thrust created by the lower rotor (tilted by the cyclic stick). This interaction drastically limits the speed obtainable by the Lama. If the wind speed exceeds the speed the Lama is capable of at the moment, the Lama moves with the wind. If the wind is above a slight breeze and the Lama is sideways to it, the wind will actually tilt the upper rotor disk, regardless of cyclic input, and the infamous “death roll” results.

There are a couple of other things I’ve learned from all this. First, be aware that it is very easy to spend more on upgrades than the Lama cost in the first place. Second, it’s very important find a supplier you can trust and be sure of what you’re buying. It’s easy to get burned, just because the ad says it's for a Lama V3, it doesn't make it true.


Finally, if you don’t really like tinkering with your heli, go with the Xtreme blades and leave everything else stock. You’ll be much happier. Upgrades are like adding hot rod parts to your car. Much of the pleasure is in the doing, and if you don’t really understand the set-up of the modifications you can quickly make it undriveable.


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Old 04-13-2008, 12:50 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Lama V4 CNC upgrade

I had a similar experience with a purple CNC upgrade kit for the V4. My purple blade grip broke where the grip joins the square bar. I replaced the CNC top grips with the stock grips and all is well. I believe the only mod I would recomend to an uninjured Lama V4 would be the center shaft/top mast upgrade to CNC simply to eliminate the "flybar ejection" problem. My purple swash plate seems to be fine along with the lower center section. The purple CNC blade holders though are too complicated and fragile. I had loose screws after 10 flights. BTW, did you record the weights of the various flavors of the CNC components you tested? I believe, if i rembember correctly, that the CNC upgrade added about 5-8 grams to the Lama. Those Xtreme blade holders look like they might be kinda porky in the gram department. Very good post. Thanks.
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Old 04-13-2008, 03:41 PM   #3 (permalink)
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No, I don't have a gram scale so I didn't weigh 'em, but the flight times didn't change enough to notice.
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Old 04-13-2008, 08:14 PM   #4 (permalink)
 

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I ended up putting all the Extrem body parts and motors on my Lama V3 ,, carbon fiber
tail boom , the Extream battery holder,Extream motors, cock pit cover, and super tuff Extream landing gear..... (my parts were crashed anyway except for the cockpit cover)
and the stock motors were worn out...

I love the way it flys with the dark purple cnc stuff too,, yes I did have to sand and polish
the ball links because they were just too tight ,,, the extream motors were very good for maybe 10 flights then the dang brush holders got so lose they lost power,, not enogh to quit but enough to make it turn to the right all the time,,, well at the time i didnt know what the problem was so i checked everything and then thought i would try another motor,, dang if the problem was not the same ,, So I thought hummm I bet I have a bad controler so I went to the LHS to buy a new one but they didnt have one for the Lama so I got one for a blade CX2 ,, I was thinking of upgrading it anyway to 2.4 gig,,,,(I have a blade 400 with a DX6I radio so I thought, wow this willl be a big inpovement) well no improvement now because the new motor still had not enough power to over come the good motor ,, this was turning into a nightmair ,,, in the end all I had to do was bend the brush holder to hold tighter into the armature...

The best thing is now I only have to put batteries into the transmitter the DX6i ,, and I belive there is an improvement in stabilty and I have so many options with this radio .
the higher frequency makes its smoother too..and the gyro may be a tad bit better too..

Oh sure I do have 250 into it including extra batteries,, but I dont think you could buy one off the shelf that would fly as nice or look as sweet !!!!!!!!

.. i hope this post will save someone the time I spent trying to figure out this deal , funny a second motor would have the same problem ,, just enough power was made so I could hardly tell the difference...
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Old 07-18-2008, 05:30 PM   #5 (permalink)
 

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I noticed my aftermarket swashplate has less range of motion than the factory swash due to the copper ball on the inside that allows for rotation.

I have the above mentioned blade holders that are faulty and they indeed do suck, I cant wait to buy the Xtreme blade holders. I really hope the Xtreme swash plate is better than my current alloy swash because I ordered it assuming so
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Old 07-25-2008, 08:03 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I am crying reading this just paid for the purple CNC collet set and know what T.B.E. is now...lol!
Have put loctite on the loose screws for now, but reading this i feel it is only a matter of time before more problems arrive!
Ah well, I already know what upgrade is next...MNWiz - excellent post, 5-stars.

Thank you for taking the time to write it, us co-ax fans can learn alot reading that. My girlfriends son is very pleased too - you taught me what was up with 'his' heli...after I spent $100 upgrading it and it still didn't fly!!! I almost gave up, but now he has it flyin for the summer holidays!!
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Old 07-25-2008, 08:30 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copterboy View Post
I am crying reading this just paid for the purple CNC collet set and know what T.B.E. is now...lol!
Have put loctite on the loose screws for now, but reading this i feel it is only a matter of time before more problems arrive!
Ah well, I already know what upgrade is next...MNWiz - excellent post, 5-stars.

Thank you for taking the time to write it, us co-ax fans can learn alot reading that. My girlfriends son is very pleased too - you taught me what was up with 'his' heli...after I spent $100 upgrading it and it still didn't fly!!! I almost gave up, but now he has it flyin for the summer holidays!!
Thanks, glad you're up and flying!

I'm always happy to hear about someone teaching a kid to fly. It's great to show them something fun to do that isn't on a computer!
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Old 07-26-2008, 10:38 PM   #8 (permalink)
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True...we had a great time with it down the park today. 3mph gusts max, and a nice sunny day too. His cousin has come over for the weekend so we all got to fly it!

We took the lama hybrid (and my t-rex)...I managed some nice fast circuits and 8's with it. Was great to get them out...but they came home and went straight back on the x-box!! You can but try eh!
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Old 07-26-2008, 10:48 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Every minute away from the video games is a victory.

A couple years from now they won't remember playing the X-Box today, but chances are pretty good they'll remember flying helis in the park with you.
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Old 08-07-2008, 07:30 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Great writeup mnwizard. I too have the purple cnc upgrades on my v4 and can't seem to get it to hover stable as it did with the stock plastic parts. I know what to try next since I'm not completely happy with the purple parts. Thanks
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Old 08-07-2008, 11:54 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnwizard View Post
Every minute away from the video games is a victory.

A couple years from now they won't remember playing the X-Box today, but chances are pretty good they'll remember flying helis in the park with you.
Very true MN, in fact my friend's grandson (6yrs.)is only allowed TV/video games 1hr. per day. We take him fishing alot (which he really enjoys) He always asks do you remember when we were fishing and......... My friend isn't interested in helis but maybe if I gave him a couple of picoz's he and his grandson could have a blast together! Or better yet the 3 of us!
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Old 08-07-2008, 12:04 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetskeeter View Post
Great writeup mnwizard. I too have the purple cnc upgrades on my v4 and can't seem to get it to hover stable as it did with the stock plastic parts. I know what to try next since I'm not completely happy with the purple parts. Thanks
Here's a link to a post where I put some pics up and some tips on using the purple parts.

If nothing there helps let me know and maybe we can go thru it step by step.

https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=86155
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Old 08-07-2008, 12:10 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heli Yea! View Post
Very true MN, in fact my friend's grandson (6yrs.)is only allowed TV/video games 1hr. per day. We take him fishing alot (which he really enjoys) He always asks do you remember when we were fishing and......... My friend isn't interested in helis but maybe if I gave him a couple of picoz's he and his grandson could have a blast together! Or better yet the 3 of us!
You're right! I know from raising my sons that whenever they get together they talk about the fun they had going here or going there, or working on the car, or learning how to water sky, or sledding down that really steep hill.

The best thing you can give kids is time. Far too many parents have forgotten that today and I find it very sad.
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Old 09-04-2008, 01:29 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I think the best upgrade is the Turbo Shaft much more room in between the blades making it more agile and fast as hell! (using extreme 180SE's with silver brushes)you can get one here http://www.rchelicoptershop.com/cata...che-p-342.html
or you can make one like I did in this thread Turbo Shaft for Esky Lama V4
it will work on the V3 and V4. I don't think it will work on the new Lama 2 as seen here http://www.chinesejade.com/walkera_Heli.htm
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Old 09-05-2008, 01:44 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Here's some pics of my lama V3 with a Turbo Shaft(hand crafted version) and the new Extreme Productions blue blades that match my rotor heads!
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Old 09-07-2008, 07:43 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heli Yea! View Post
Here's some pics of my lama V3 with a Turbo Shaft(hand crafted version) and the new Extreme Productions blue blades that match my rotor heads!
Very nice! How did you color the blades?
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Old 09-08-2008, 02:00 PM   #17 (permalink)
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You can buy blue and yellow Extereme blades at miraclemart.com but, I used to color them with a permanent marker like the green ones in the Turbo Shaft thread.
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Old 02-03-2009, 12:08 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Some stupid question.

Are CNC upgrades of different colors are really different? And if so, why? Are they produced by different manufacturers?
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Old 02-19-2009, 08:07 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Sometimes, but it's not a reliable indicator of quality.

You're better off choosing your parts by the reputation of the manufacturer.

In my experience, xTreme has been the best, but they can be expensive.
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Old 05-05-2009, 08:32 PM   #20 (permalink)
 

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Is the Turbo kit for Lama good? I'd guess the turbo shaft is better than the shorter Xtreme extended inner shaft, but what about the other pieces like the blade holders and swash plate?

I'm not averse to mixing parts from various manufacturers, if there's a place that sells both the turbo shaft and Xtreme parts. One could easily spend half the value of the Lama in shipping and handling alone buying from multiple vendors. No no no. I've yet to find a place that has everything I want.
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