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Old 05-13-2008, 04:26 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Helicommand Rigid - my take on it so far

Iíve been playing around with my Helicommand Rigid flybarless system for almost 2 months now so I thought Iíd share a few of my findings. Since I have not tried other systems, like V-bar or CMS, I cannot compare these. This is just my opinion about the Helicommand Rigid system.

I chose the Helicommand Rigid system over the Mikado V-bar for 2 main reasons. The main reason was that the HC offers stabilisation modes. I thought this might be useful while working on my 3D flying skills, so that I could have a Ďbail-outí panic switch option. The second reason was that the HC set-up looked a lot less complicated. Price-wise, there was not much in it. The HC with software was only ~$50 cheaper than the V-bar (right now I think they are about the same price).

I initially tested HC on my 10s Tango 45-08 (w/12t pinion) Trex600 w/flybar, and Radix 600 main blades. This was a very simple installation. I just had to replace my Fut401 gyro with the HC unit, rewire it, set it up as per the instructions, and go fly. I tried both the horizontal stabilisation mode and the rigid mode. I did not try the position mode (holds a ground reference position but only good for up to ~2 metres) since I did not think that this was going to be useful for me.

In short, everything worked as advertised. The horizontal mode allowed you to bang the sticks, re-centre them, and the heli would then go into a nice level hover (with a bit of drift). The rigid mode worked much like without the HC but I noticed that the heli seemed to track a lot better, esp. in gusty winds. The tail seemed about the same, or better, than my old Fut401 (but this did need a few adjustments). So, no more excuses, time to try it without a flybar!

This was a very simple exercise (see picture below). Flipped the grips over, installed Vario ballís (~14mm to centre), removed the headblock pins, installed a Mikado swashdriver, and replaced the trex600 inner swash balls with ones from an old clapped out Mikado swash. I brought the cyclic servo arms in to ~22mm (from ~28mm) and used a couple of 75mm Mikado rods/ball links that I had in my old Logo stock. While I had a most of these parts in stock, most will find it easier/cheaper to just go with the Mikado Trex600 head upgrade imop.

Trex600HC.jpq

Only a couple of flying sessions were required to get the horiz and rigid gains right, and I had this heli flying fantastic. I upped my collective pitch from +/-12deg to +/-14deg and cyclic from 8deg to 10deg, all at 1950 rpm HS (Iím not a high HS junky) this heli was much more ballistic in climb-out, and very agile, with little or no bogging. I do not normally use expo on my cyclic but I needed to add 25% in this case. I flew the heli in very strong/gusty winds (grounded most of my flying mates) and it seemed to cut through the air with more authority than my larger/heavier Ion-x. By the way, the all up flying weight was 3.6 kg without flybar versus 3.7 kg with.

I tested both set-ups with Eagletree and found that both recorded about the same peak amps/watts but, on an average run, that the HC used ~12% less Mahrís to do this. Iíd estimate that the peak performance improvement with HC was in the order of ~20%. There is no doubt in my mind that the HC Trex600 is a much better flying heli, and I was getting ~1 min extra runtime to boot. I hated to switch it back to the flybar but I needed to go the next step and try the HC on my 10s single staged (10:1) Ion-x.

The Ion-x conversion was also very simple (see picture below). This was made esp. easy since Fredrick (MrMel) had already done it so I just followed his lead and got some K&S Raptor 60/90 metal grips and brought the cyclic servo arms in a bit (from 19.5mm to 15mm) in order to get a bit more torque and resolution out of my old Fut9252ís. The picture shows them before I brought the arms in. I used the Mikado Swashdriver and the stock swash-to-grip MA 2.6mm links.

IonxSSHC.jpq

To cut an already too long story short, the HC Ion-x, after a number of fine tunning flights (~5 times as many as the Trex600 took), is now flying very nicely. Iíve been able to up the collective pitch from +/-11deg to +/-14deg and cyclic from 7.5deg to 10deg without the heli bogging too much. The total flying weight with 2x5s Evo25 3700 is 4.3 kg versus 4.65 kg although ~80g of this is due to switching to lighter MA Razor landing gear. I recently replaced the PowerJazz esc with a Jazz 55-10-32 esc and have knocked down the weight to 4.15 kg. Not bad for a 90 sized heli swinging 690mm Radix blades!

My Eagletree recordings said similar things. That is, the peak amps/watts were about the same (at 1880 rpm HS) but the Mahr used during a normal run was ~10% less. However, the climb and agility increases were not as high as I experienced with the Trex600. Iíd guesstimate that the peak climb-out rate is up ~10% and the agility is up ~15%, versus ~20% for the Trex600.

The only problem Iíve had is that I have not been able to get the horiz/rigid modes working together as well as I did with the Trex600. This is because to use both modes (= fixed mode) you need to hard-wire the rigid gains. The step size in the software is pretty course so it is difficult to match this if the gain settings required are pretty low. Iím sure I will figure a way around this eventually, or hopefully the software will improve. This is not an issue if you are using rigid only mode (= Extreme mode).

Still, I would say that this 10s Ion-x is much nicer to fly with HC. But if I could only have one HC unit, Iíd put it back on my Trex600. Iím not sure, but I think that the 10s limit favours the smaller heli in this case.

My next step is to try the HC on a 15s Ion-x. I have an Actro 32-4 max ready to go to try on my SS Ion-x (waiting for new 111t MA main gears) and Iím finally getting back my Neu 1521/2y motor (~6 months in repair shop) to try again on my double staged 15s Ion-x. This should give me a good comparison on 15s.

Stay tunned!

Cheers,
TomC
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Old 05-29-2008, 01:17 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Just a quick update. The HC Rigid worked great on my 10s SS Ion-x but, Imop, I thought that it all felt better on my 10s Trex600e.

I think that this has made my Trex600e almost perfect! Lots of power (feels like +12s) and ~+20% more agility. Also, I'm getting 8-9 min runtimes as well. What's not to like!

Cheers,
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Old 06-06-2008, 11:39 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Thanks for the great info!
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Old 06-07-2008, 01:37 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e292644 View Post
Thanks for the great info!

No problem Mate. Thanks.

Another important thing about flybarless imop, is you do not NEED the high headspeeds to get the same pop that you need with a flybar.

I'll probably buy a V-bar (from my friend Bobby at Espirit, of course) pretty soon to try on my Ion-x's. The HC-rigid unit is working great on my 10s Trex600e but I think it needs a few more V-bar fine-tunning features for my larger Ion-x's. In any case, it will be great to be able to properly compare both of them.

Cheers,
TomC
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Old 07-25-2008, 02:11 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Hi TomC

Any chance of posting some screen shots from the software of your HC rigid setup as I have been having problems trying to set mine up.

Regards

Graham
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Old 07-25-2008, 04:55 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Graham,

PM me your E-mail address and I'll post you my latest Helicommand Rigid file for my Trex600e. Some of these settings (esp. tail and rigid settings) may be useful for you.

Cheers,
TomC
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Old 08-22-2008, 10:56 AM   #7 (permalink)
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You have trex videos flying with the helicommand regid
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Old 08-22-2008, 11:13 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Jose,

Sorry but no videos. I've E-mailed you my latest HC file.

Cheers,
TomC
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Old 08-31-2008, 02:49 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Hi Tom,
I have the HC Rigid installed in my Funkey Bell222, powered by T-REX 600e.

I have some problems finding a scale like setup. Hover is perfect. Nick motion is perfect, but on Roll I alwas have interferences with Nick.

My setup in Fader Mode is:
Fader, ~ 40%
sens gain aileron, 7
sens gain pitch, 6

stick gain 6
direct control portion 5
attitude holding rate 8
withdraw rate 4

Can you give us your working setup and do you know, how the Parameters work.

bye, scotty
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Old 08-31-2008, 02:47 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scotty600 View Post
Hi Tom,
I have the HC Rigid installed in my Funkey Bell222, powered by T-REX 600e.

I have some problems finding a scale like setup. Hover is perfect. Nick motion is perfect, but on Roll I alwas have interferences with Nick.

My setup in Fader Mode is:
Fader, ~ 40%
sens gain aileron, 7
sens gain pitch, 6

stick gain 6
direct control portion 5
attitude holding rate 8
withdraw rate 4

Can you give us your working setup and do you know, how the Parameters work.

bye, scotty
G'day Scotty,

I use the Extreme mode myself but this is pretty similar to the fader. My main current rigid settings, compared to yours are;

Extreme ~75% Tx gain

sens gain aileron, 6
sens gain pitch, 5

stick gain 10
direct control portion 5
attitude holding rate 4
withdraw rate 5

Maybe try these and see if they help. When you change the stick gain to 10, go and check your cyclic %'s to make sure that they not too high. I think mine, using Align servo arms, are Pitch = 45%, Aileron/Elev = 65%. This gives me ~+/-14 deg collective and 11 deg cyclic. Even with these large settings, I get very little interaction.

If you PM me your E-mail address I'll send you my latest HC file.

As far as what all these settings do, you can get a little description when you point your mouse over them. If you do not get this, try going to HC support webpages and download the latest software.

If you are getting interactions with roll/nick (nick = collective pitch, I believe), this sounds like an inital setup problem. Also, check the last screen when you are hooked up to HC and your PC and see if all the stick movements are correnct and centered. If not, go back and do the setup again. Remember to have the throttle and nick in lowest position before reseting the set point.

Hope this helps. If you need more you should contact HC support. They are very helpful imop.

Good luck and Cheers,

Tom C
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Old 08-31-2008, 04:23 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Hi Tom,
thanks for these usefull description.
Next time I can test would be in two weeks .... business related.

Yep, Nick is a german word it is aileron in english.
The extreme mode is not available with my device. I have these button also in the software, but can't activate it.

so long,
scotty aka matthias
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Old 10-11-2008, 09:23 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I have also been trying to set up a Helicommand rigid and got caught on on thing. Each tab in the PC setup is individual. Even if you click on reset it only changes the setting in that tab and not globally. One issue I still have not sorted is I get an oscillation in the helicopter at hover when I use the pos hold setting. As I fly scale only this would be really useful to have. Any ideas?
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Old 10-11-2008, 09:54 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT4 View Post
I have also been trying to set up a Helicommand rigid and got caught on on thing. Each tab in the PC setup is individual. Even if you click on reset it only changes the setting in that tab and not globally. One issue I still have not sorted is I get an oscillation in the helicopter at hover when I use the pos hold setting. As I fly scale only this would be really useful to have. Any ideas?
Ya, I got caught on that tab thing as well. However, if you make a change and then go to the first tab (All) and then write to it, all settings are updated.

I don't use position mode myself, but I think you just need to reduce the position gain value on your pilot Tx switch/slider. Otherwise, try E-mailing helicommand support. They are pretty helpful imop.

Cheers,
TomC
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Old 10-23-2008, 01:27 AM   #14 (permalink)
 

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Well setting this up on my REX 600. I have the rigid but am just using the 3d mode for now. Setting it up for an AP ship. No 3d or anything. WOW there is a lot of stuff ot change on this. So far I have only flown it with it off so I can tweak this 600 and get it flying nice and tight. Have yet to flip the switch on the Helicommand. I was running the 401 on it but I am going to hook the tail up to the Helicommand as I think it should be plenty sufficient for handling this Helicopter for just cruizn around and doing no 3D.

What do you guys think of the tail gyro on this thing for those who have used it. Also do you set it up basically the same way you do any other gyro. Set it up on the gear channel and on the DX7 I assume it would be Gear/Gear and not Gear/Gyro. The manual leaves much to be desired IMO. But I am muddling my way through it. Any assistance anyone has or nay words of knowledge regarding setting up the rigid would be much appreciated. A setup video for this thing would be great, that is something Bob could do . Maybe I will one day when I figure this thing out . Anyways thanks again for any help. Looking forward to using the Horizontal mode.
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:34 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Kyle,

Ya, the HC manual is not the greatest, like all German manuals. If you study the little balloon help things on each hightlighted item you should be ok though.

Personally I think you'll be fine using the internal tail gyro. It's at least as good as a 401 gyro and maybe a bit better imop.

I set the gyro gain to the gear switch.

The best setting I found with my 3D flybarless Trex600e tail, with a 9254 tail servo are;
Yaw rate =10
Yaw expo = 2
Torque comp = 0
Servo limit = 65 (this will depend on your servo arm length, mine is ~14mm). You need to set this like the travel screw on your 401 gyro
diff gain = 4
halt/delay = 10
Heading hold = 10

Setting up the gyro is a bit diff, than a 401. You just need to adjust your rudder trims (I use the rudder sub-trim myself) so that, on the ground (before motor power-up), the tail, in HH holds fairly well. Later, you can adjust the mechanical settings for non-HH so that they are both the same. This does not effect the HH mode, but I do this so that I can switch between these modes without any differences. Same as you do with a 401, exp, before start-up.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
TomC
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Old 10-23-2008, 01:29 PM   #16 (permalink)
 

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I appreciate that Tom. It at least gives me something to work off of. Yeah I notice the bubbles that come up when scrolling the mouse over but still sometimes not quite clear, at least to me. I wanna know the when, why, where, how and everything in between of why you do something and how it affects it . Must be the pilot in me that makes me that way . Anyways I appreciate the numbers and explanation I will try it all out soon and see how it works. That is good to hear it is at least as good as a 401. No sense in me running a separate gyro then. Sounds like this one should work just fine, especially for my application.

I'll let you guys know how it works out.

Kyle
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Old 12-14-2008, 01:21 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Thought I'd update this thread and let you all know how I've made out with Helicommand Rigid on my 10s Trex600e.

It only took about 6 months to do but I believe I've finally gotten this nailed down perfectly.

This is my lastest HC file;

Cheers,
TomC
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Old 12-18-2008, 01:08 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Tom how you doing mate? Just wanted to thank you for all your help to me and others. Are you related to mother Theresa? haha j/k


Donnie
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Old 12-29-2008, 06:22 PM   #19 (permalink)
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G'day TomC,

I was wondering if you could help me with my HC rigid setup? I have just installed it on my HDX500 using a DX7 radio. Managed to get the swash and sensors all setup correctly using the PC adapter.

First test flight there was a very severe and fast drift to the left. Have not tried autotrim function yet as it confuses the hell out of me. The manual is vey poor at explaining things.

On the DX7 I have set up the autotrim function on the gear switch, which is a 2 position toggle. Up position EPA is 100% and down position is 0%. When hovering do I simply flip the switch up and leave it? or switch up then down after a short time.

Any assistance you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

How's the weather up north?

Cheers,

Nathan.
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Old 12-29-2008, 09:59 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heli Paramedic View Post
G'day TomC,

I was wondering if you could help me with my HC rigid setup? I have just installed it on my HDX500 using a DX7 radio. Managed to get the swash and sensors all setup correctly using the PC adapter.

First test flight there was a very severe and fast drift to the left. Have not tried autotrim function yet as it confuses the hell out of me. The manual is vey poor at explaining things.

On the DX7 I have set up the autotrim function on the gear switch, which is a 2 position toggle. Up position EPA is 100% and down position is 0%. When hovering do I simply flip the switch up and leave it? or switch up then down after a short time.

Any assistance you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

How's the weather up north?

Cheers,

Nathan.

Nathan,

Pretty hot and humid on the Gold Coast today!

Sorry but I cann't help you on the 'Auto-trim' since I have never tried this (except as part of the initial setup). I use a DX7 Tx as well and prefered to keep the spare channel for tail Gyro (internal) gains.

All I've done is use tx trims to get the heli hovering nice and level (in fader mode, no stablisation), land the heli and mechanically adjust the links to take the tx trim out. Later, when I go into horiz stablisation I find that I only need a couple of clicks of Tx trim to hold a level hover. I then just make sure that these Tx trims are the same on all my flight modes (normal, idle-ups and T.Hold). When I switch back to non-stablisation mode the heli trims seem fine.

Also, I use rudder subtrim to initially set the Heading hold tail gyro so it holds pretty good on the bench. I then mechanically adjust the tail links so that non-heading hold holds ok.

Hope this helps and best of luck.

Cheers,
TomC
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