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Old 06-01-2009, 05:17 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Hi Tom,
So when you use your switch to turn on horizontal mode (to recover quickly), how much of a lag time is there between the time you turn it on, and the time it takes to recover?

I know that when using a CoPilot II, you flick the switch and the system immediately kicks in to get you to a horizontal position. Can you do this with the Helicommand Rigid (flick a switch to save one's rear end)? Or does the Helicommand need some time to "recalibrate" before putting you in a stable, horizontal, hover position.

Thanks!
The heli recovers pretty quickly (~2 sec) however I find it still drifts a bit, but at least it does not auger itself in! I used this in an emergency a few months ago and it did save my bacon.

I used the original CoPilot quite a few years ago on a mechanical CCPM heli and I think it actually recovered a little faster, with less drift.

To get rid of the horizontal drift with HC you would need to activate the Positional stablisation feature (and be no more than ~3m high). I have not tried this feature yet on my heli but I recently helped set up a local guy's scale 90 heli with the positional stablisation and it seemed to work very well. We got it hovering hands off, without any drift.

Cheers,
TomC
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Old 06-01-2009, 02:00 PM   #42 (permalink)
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The heli recovers pretty quickly (~2 sec) however I find it still drifts a bit, but at least it does not auger itself in! I used this in an emergency a few months ago and it did save my bacon.

I used the original CoPilot quite a few years ago on a mechanical CCPM heli and I think it actually recovered a little faster, with less drift.

To get rid of the horizontal drift with HC you would need to activate the Positional stablisation feature (and be no more than ~3m high). I have not tried this feature yet on my heli but I recently helped set up a local guy's scale 90 heli with the positional stablisation and it seemed to work very well. We got it hovering hands off, without any drift.

Cheers,
TomC
Hi Tom,

Thanks for the info; just to double-check -- so there's no time lag once you switch on horizontal mode? I know the manual says that if you're going to practice 3D maneuvers, switch it off, but wait 15-20 seconds after you're done before switching it back on.

From the HC Rigid Manual: "For agile 3D... a multitude of subsequently flown rolls, loops, etc... the Helicommand 3D should be switched to off beforehand, and not switched on again until at least 15-20 seconds after the maneuvering had finished..."

I'm guessing that the manual is describing the ideal scenario, where you turn off the HC horizontal mode, practice some 3D, and then turn the HC back on after 15-20 seconds. Nice, but not great if one loses orientation and the heli takes a dirt nap...

However, in an emergency situation, I think you're saying that if someone is flying with the HC horizontal mode off, and loses orientation (can't save the heli), then he/she can switch the HC horizontal mode on immediately and the heli will recover itself -- given that there's enough space between the heli and the ground. Correct?

Thanks again!
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Old 06-01-2009, 03:49 PM   #43 (permalink)
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ElectricSheep,

I know the manual says to wait a little while after a 3D move before you go into horiz stablize mode and I'm sure this is ideal. I have tried flicking into horiz mode during a series of fairly fast flips and it seems to recover fine. Depending where it was in the flip, it can end up horiz stablized, inverted.

I think that the HC manual is a bit on the conservative side regarding the wait time and probably also the turn rate limits. Except for Extreme mode, you as supposed to limit your xyz turn rates to less than 200deg/sec and with an external tail gyro, 400deg/sec, piro rates. I have exceeded these limits a number of times and have not noticed any problems. In my opinion, hard, jerky pitch pumping moves (which I do not like or do) might be more of a potential problem than smooth, but fast, turn rates.

Cheers,
TomC
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Old 10-04-2009, 09:37 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Hi,

I dont have a Rigid yet, but I've sent my HC 3D to germany for an upgrade to Rigid, before it was flying fine with my settings, can i still keep my original settings when going flybarless and getting a Rigid model?

I've not had a chance to take a look at the rigid part of the software screen but how does it work? If i have the rigid on for FBL can i still knock my heli around and fly 3d with horizontal off? It sounds like there is the extreme mode and fixed mode? I am a bit confused about those two.
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Old 10-04-2009, 04:04 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Hi,

I dont have a Rigid yet, but I've sent my HC 3D to germany for an upgrade to Rigid, before it was flying fine with my settings, can i still keep my original settings when going flybarless and getting a Rigid model?

I've not had a chance to take a look at the rigid part of the software screen but how does it work? If i have the rigid on for FBL can i still knock my heli around and fly 3d with horizontal off? It sounds like there is the extreme mode and fixed mode? I am a bit confused about those two.
Hi Butters,

Most of your settings should work ok but your collective pitch will probably be a bit different, depending on which FBL configuraton you use. I'd go through the whole setup procedure again if I were you, just to be on the safe side.

The Extreme mode is recommended for unlimited 3D performance but does not offer any stablisation. Your pilot switch can be used to set the rigid gains based on the %'s you have on your software's Rigid tab. It's a good idea to start out with this mode in order to find out what the best Rigid gains to use are.

The Fixed mode lets you set gains on your pilot switch for Positional gain and Horizontal gain. The rigid gains are preset on the Rigid tab (top 2 numbers, 5,4 in my case). If you use this mode the limitations are that you should not exceed 200 degrees/second movements, in any direction (400 deg/s pirroette if you use an external gyro, like I do).

Personally I mainly use the Fixed mode with the pilot switch atv's set to 0 - up (Positional gain = 0% = no stablisation) and 80%-down (80 % Horiz gain). I fly with the switch up and if I get into trouble I switch it down which gets me into a pretty level hover and gives me time to sort things out. Actually saved me just the other day! Again, you need to keep things a bit slower in this mode but I find that 2 second rolls and flips are plenty fast enough for me anyway.

Good luck with yours and please let us know how you make out.

Best cheers,
TomC
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Old 10-04-2009, 10:32 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Im confused, maybe ill understand it better when I get it.

Here was my setup on dx7.

Normal mode - Helicommand off (no stabiization, unlimited flips and rolls)
Idle 1 - Helicommand off (no stabilization, unlimited flips and rolls)
Idle 2 - Horizontal mode

Is it possible, to have the rigid on in all modes so that I can fly the helicopter without the flybar and still keep the above settings? I mean cuz I hate the feeling of the the horizontal or position, I just use it as a bailout situation.

If the above is possible to do how would I go about setting it up in the software? And how do I tell on the bench if the rigid flybarless is working with the stabilization off?
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Old 10-04-2009, 11:37 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Butters,

I have never never used idle-up switches to set horiz gains so I cannot help you there. For me it makes more sense to use your gear or aux2 switch to do this.

In fixed rigid mode your rigid gain settings on the top of the rigid tab are always on.

Try to find some local guys who use HC-rigid would be best. At least try to get some local advice on setting up the flybarless head. Anyone who has set up a v-bar should be able to help you out. The mechanical bits on flybarless v-bar systems work very well with HC-rigid imho.

You can tell if stablisation is on by tilting the heli and seeing that it makes the proper corrections on your swash. Also, the light on the HC unit will change colour. Red means that stablisation is off.

Good luck and Cheers,
TomC
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Old 10-05-2009, 10:33 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Hey Tom,

I briefly read over the instruction manuals, I think the setting I would want is to keep it in Fixed mode, that way the rigid will always be on and I shall set the gain in the software. This way I can still have my pilot channel for Hor, no stabilization, and Pos. hold correct?

Anotehr question is, how do I know if the rigid setting is too high, liek what will the heli do? Are the preset gains good enough?
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Old 10-05-2009, 04:05 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Hey Tom,

I briefly read over the instruction manuals, I think the setting I would want is to keep it in Fixed mode, that way the rigid will always be on and I shall set the gain in the software. This way I can still have my pilot channel for Hor, no stabilization, and Pos. hold correct?

Anotehr question is, how do I know if the rigid setting is too high, liek what will the heli do? Are the preset gains good enough?
Butters,

Sounds like you've got things figured out fine. I've E-mailed you my latest HC file for my Trex6000e so you can have a look at my rigid settings. I'll attach a copy for others (see below).

The default rigid gains are ok to start with (think they were 7,6). Use Extreme mode and set your pilot switch to ~70%. this will equate to say 7x70% ~ 5. Slowly increase the atv's on your pilot channel until the heli starts to wobble a little and then back off ~5%. All of this is explained in the manual, you just need to read and re-read it quite a few times until it sinks in.

Good luck and cheers,
Tom C
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File Type: zip Trex600rigid1.zip (398 Bytes, 158 views)
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Old 10-05-2009, 04:12 PM   #50 (permalink)
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I dont think the extreme mode is in the manual, they just have fader and fixed. Also I do not see where fixed mode have limitations regarding rolls and flips. Maybe i missed?
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Old 10-05-2009, 05:00 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Jason,

I'm currently flying mine in Fixed mode using one of switches to turn horiz mode on/off. I set the up switch atv to zero for rigid only and down to 80% gain for horiz mode (fairly high gain/quick recovery). I test this feature quite a bit to make sure it works ok. I have only had to use it once when I lost orientation and it worked very well. It kept the heli from spining/augering into the ground and gave me time to fully recover my orientation. You can fly around in horiz mode but you need to hold the sticks in position to keep it moving. Anytime you center the stick it will want to auto-level. I don't like flying around this way too often.

In this fixed mode you are limited to soft 3D since rotation rates need to be limited to ~200deg/sec for A/E and 400deg/sec for the tail (with an extrernal gyro, 200 if using internal one). This is to avoid confusing the stablisation sensors. If I use Extreme mode (you need your PC to switch to this mode) there is no limit but there is no auto-stablisation mode either. Right now I am finding the fixed mode great for soft 3D, backwards, and inverted practise. I'll switch it back to extreme mode when I want to wring it out.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
TomC
hi,

are you saying that even when horizontal stab is turned off and rigid is in fixed that we are still limited? I do not see that in the manual, maybe I'm missing something.
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Old 10-05-2009, 09:49 PM   #52 (permalink)
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I dont think the extreme mode is in the manual, they just have fader and fixed. Also I do not see where fixed mode have limitations regarding rolls and flips. Maybe i missed?
Extreme basically is Fader, but without the 200 deg/sec turnrate limitations (400 deg/s piro rate with an external gyro). I have been told by HC support not to exceed these limitations when using anything but Extreme mode, even if the pos or horiz gains are set to zero.

Cheers,
TomC
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Old 10-11-2009, 01:00 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Default HELICOMMAND DSX9 AR7000 setup

Hi TomC.
Hope things are Ok on the Sunshine Coast.
Great and informative thread.
Now have a HC Rigid and looking to go doem that route.
Spend hours on Forums and like the stle of the product.
OK.
Noe setting up into a very stable Gaui 550 CF. Thought it would be ideal to test out and set up then transfer the unit to the Gaui 425 FBL, which to say the very least is a handful!!!
Using a JR DSX9 and Ar7000 RX.
AND
Having great trouble with the initial set up and connections.
Hopefully someone as this TX,RX and HC combo in action.
After many hours of back and forwards, we are in a loop of no real progress!.
Help gratefully accepted.
Cheers
Rod Jam.
PS. I have the Captron Belkin USB PC connection. But running Vista on the PC and it appears that there is no applicable driver.
And ideas?
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Old 10-11-2009, 02:08 AM   #54 (permalink)
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rodjam,

If you have the 64 bit Vista, you are out of luck since the HC software does not support it. If you have the 32 bit Vista installed you should be ok. I run mine on Windows XP so I cannot really help you here, sorry.

As far as your USB cable adapter goes, you'll find that it either will work with Vista or you are going to have to locate one that does work with Vista. I was pretty lucky since I had an old Windows 98 USB cable adapter (Targus) and even though when I tried to install it on Windows XP it said that it was not supported, it still worked fine!

You really need to try to sort the software/connection stuff first in my opinion since you will be unable to use HC-Rigid without it.

You could try E-mailing HC support (see their WebPages; Helicommmand.com). They are usually very good at getting back to you.

I know it's kind of fustrating at first since the manual is not that great (although it's one of the better German ones I've seen). Just read and re-read it a few times and it will finally sink in.

Good luck and cheers,
TomC
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Old 10-11-2009, 11:53 PM   #55 (permalink)
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hi tom,

i talked to with one of the engineers from helicommand captron (germany) last week to see if he received my unit. But I asked him about the limitations in fixed mode, he said as long as hor or POS is not active then there will be no limitations on yaw or flip or roll rates. Meaning only rigid function is active then there is no limitation. maybe we got differnt information but I can call up the manager and ask him to confirm this.
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:52 AM   #56 (permalink)
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G'day butters,

I definitely got a different answer from their manager so yes, I think it might be worth asking him yourself. I was told that in fixed mode Pos and Horiz were still active, even when you set their gains = 0. Only Extreme mode fully switches these off and takes away the turnrate limitations. Otherwise, why have this extra mode?

Cheers,
TomC
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Old 10-12-2009, 09:26 AM   #57 (permalink)
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I think maybe one mode lets you adjust the gains on the Hor and Pos and the other mode lets you adjust the gain for the Rigid portion on the pilot channels.
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Old 10-12-2009, 03:31 PM   #58 (permalink)
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I think maybe one mode lets you adjust the gains on the Hor and Pos and the other mode lets you adjust the gain for the Rigid portion on the pilot channels.
Ya sorry, I meant why do they have the 2 modes, Extreme and Fader? In the latest manual they say Fader = scale, Extreme = acrobatic. Anyway, worth checking out again with the manager of HC imho.

Cheers,
TomC
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Old 10-13-2009, 11:55 AM   #59 (permalink)
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They will ship it back tomorrow morning, wow everything came out to be $200 US. Shipping via DHL was like $66 US, it better be DHL express haha. I find it kinda weird that I will get the product first before paying.
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Old 10-14-2009, 07:39 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Hey Tom,

Do you know who u spoke with over at Captron? Also do you think I can phone you up if I have trouble or questions when setting up the HC? Please PM your number if its cool.
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