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Mikado Logo 700 Xxtreme Mikado Logo 700 Xxtreme Helicopters Discussion


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Old 05-10-2016, 06:13 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Does the 700 xxtreame fly real heavy compared to other brands?

As the title states,
With a lot of people trying to get rid of their 700 xxtreame to make way for the new 700 I am very tempted to purchase an old xxtreame. But see allot of threads saying it fly really heavy. Coming from a Trex 700dfc and goblin 700c will I be disappointed with how the logo flys??
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Old 05-10-2016, 07:01 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I was tempted myself. There's a fantastic deal up right now on a 700Xx in the FS section. They're suppose to be great flying machines.
But I'm keeping my Goblins so when I buy a logo I want what they're known for a light heli. I have a 690 coming for just that reason I want the two 700's to fly completely different I already have a smack 700 what I want is something that helps me practice.

I'll be curious to see what people think who have both a G700 and 700Xx
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Old 05-13-2016, 11:50 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Yes, is the short answer.
It's a combination of rotating mass and the inefficient drivetrain.
It is very well mannered, excellent tail, excellent cyclic, but collective response sucks.
A goblin gets 45 seconds more flight time and feels like roughly 30% more in flight performance with an identical power system and batteries. The xx is a real snooze to fly in comparison.
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Old 05-18-2016, 01:13 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NTM View Post
Yes, is the short answer.
.
It is very well mannered, excellent tail, excellent cyclic, but collective response sucks.
(...)The xx is a real snooze to fly in comparison.
I'd have to disagree with the part about it being a snooze to fly, my 700 flies very light (in some ways), even though it is not, by mass, light. My collective response is not the best, yes, but it is not nearly as bad as you'd expect. Believe it or not, with the heavy Edge SE blades, my 700XX flies very light, as in it is very free to rotate in any direction whenever I desire. It can be very exciting to fly, if you want it to. If you want it to be a very precise flying cruiser, you can do that too.

With the proper setup, you can make the Xxtreme fly however you want it to, it is a very versatile heli.
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Old 05-20-2016, 12:18 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by I Fly Helis View Post
I'd have to disagree with the part about it being a snooze to fly, my 700 flies very light (in some ways), even though it is not, by mass, light. My collective response is not the best, yes, but it is not nearly as bad as you'd expect. Believe it or not, with the heavy Edge SE blades, my 700XX flies very light, as in it is very free to rotate in any direction whenever I desire. It can be very exciting to fly, if you want it to. If you want it to be a very precise flying cruiser, you can do that too.

With the proper setup, you can make the Xxtreme fly however you want it to, it is a very versatile heli.
Believe me, I've likely tried a lot more setups on the 700xx than you have.
It's a quality, refined heli, but I can name several that outperform it substantially.
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Old 05-20-2016, 04:00 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Yes, is the short answer.
It's a combination of rotating mass and the inefficient drivetrain.
It is very well mannered, excellent tail, excellent cyclic, but collective response sucks.
A goblin gets 45 seconds more flight time and feels like roughly 30% more in flight performance with an identical power system and batteries. The xx is a real snooze to fly in comparison.
I believe the new Logo 700 inherits the same rotating mass and drive train from the 700xx, albeit smaller main gear and rotor head. In theory a heavier rotating mass is beneficial as it stores more kinetic energy and and is harder to slow down.
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Old 05-20-2016, 10:20 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I have owned both, the Logo was more precise in any condition weather wise. I got the same fight time for both...
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Old 05-20-2016, 10:52 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mahbouni View Post
I believe the new Logo 700 inherits the same rotating mass and drive train from the 700xx, albeit smaller main gear and rotor head. In theory a heavier rotating mass is beneficial as it stores more kinetic energy and and is harder to slow down.
It has significantly less rotating mass in the new 700, this I know for a fact, it was identified as a major goal with the design of the new one.
Once that heavier mass is slowed down it requires more energy to accelerate, and unless you are running a very large, powerful motor, it's going to be slowing and accelerating a lot.
This was just one single issue with the design, any of them by themselves wouldn't have been a big deal, but add them all up and you get a power hungry helicopter with sluggish collective response.

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I have owned both, the Logo was more precise in any condition weather wise. I got the same fight time for both...
Were you running identical setups in both though, right from batteries, blades, to head speed and pitch ?
I tried several identical setups in both machines, with the same flight routine, and the goblin consistently got 45 seconds more flight time, and was more fun to fly.
And I've got no dog in the fight, I'm not associated with sab or mikado, nor do I have a helicopter from either manufacturer at the moment.
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Old 05-20-2016, 11:03 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Once that heavier mass is slowed down it requires more energy to accelerate, and unless you are running a very large, powerful motor, it's going to be slowing and accelerating a lot.
That's not how the laws of physics work. The amount it slows down is inversely proportional to the mass. The same amount of energy is required to speed it up to the original rpm because the the amount to speed it up by will be less.
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Old 05-20-2016, 04:05 PM   #10 (permalink)
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So the xxtreame is a big fat pig to fly hence I should stay away from the for sale section
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Old 05-20-2016, 04:07 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Sure it is big, but honestly it fly as no other bird.
The best is to try it, I personally felt in love with this bird ....
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Old 05-20-2016, 11:46 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahbouni View Post
That's not how the laws of physics work. The amount it slows down is inversely proportional to the mass. The same amount of energy is required to speed it up to the original rpm because the the amount to speed it up by will be less.
In an overly simplified scenario perhaps.
This however isn't a flywheel.
You've got a governor controlling + or - 50 rpm on both helis, they will both see an equivelant drop in headspeed regardless of drivetrain mass. You're going to be accelerating both machines heads the same amount of rpm, the same amount of times.
The greater mass will use more power.
This isn't a huge effect, but the performance is as I previously mentioned, a combination of many factors.
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Old 05-21-2016, 02:17 AM   #13 (permalink)
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This however isn't a flywheel.
You've got a governor controlling + or - 50 rpm on both helis, both helis, they will both see an equivelant drop in headspeed regardless of drivetrain mass. You're going to be accelerating both machines heads the same amount of rpm, the same amount of times.
It is exactly a flywheel and you will not see an equivalent drop in headspeed. A drive train weighing twice as much will slow down by half as much when the same opposing force is applied. Therefore the the governor will need to correct only half the rpm error, but since the mass is double, the energy required is the same as before. Correcting 100g by 50rpm requires the same energy as 200g by 25rpm.

I agree with you that it isn't a huge effect because in reality the mass of the 700xx drive train is probably not double and in any case there will be orders of magnitude more energy in the rotor blades, due to mass travelling much faster at the blade tips. So really this debate is moot because the mass of the drive train makes very little difference in either case.
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Old 05-21-2016, 01:49 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NTM View Post
It has significantly less rotating mass in the new 700, this I know for a fact, it was identified as a major goal with the design of the new one.
Once that heavier mass is slowed down it requires more energy to accelerate, and unless you are running a very large, powerful motor, it's going to be slowing and accelerating a lot.
This was just one single issue with the design, any of them by themselves wouldn't have been a big deal, but add them all up and you get a power hungry helicopter with sluggish collective response.



Were you running identical setups in both though, right from batteries, blades, to head speed and pitch ?
I tried several identical setups in both machines, with the same flight routine, and the goblin consistently got 45 seconds more flight time, and was more fun to fly.
And I've got no dog in the fight, I'm not associated with sab or mikado, nor do I have a helicopter from either manufacturer at the moment.
Actually yes...I moved all the electronics from the Goblin (including the Robbe ESC and Quantum motor) to my 700. I fly 14 degrees in everything so yes...same setup...
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Old 05-21-2016, 02:14 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Actually yes...I moved all the electronics from the Goblin (including the Robbe ESC and Quantum motor) to my 700. I fly 14 degrees in everything so yes...same setup...
Hmmm, odd.
I ran four different power systems that had all been tried in the 700xx before, with very repeatable results.

All I can say is that for guys still holding on to the 700xx, it will all come into startlingly sharp focus for you when you try the new 700...
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Old 05-22-2016, 12:08 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote from a post above: "So the xxtreame is a big fat pig to fly hence I should stay away from the for sale section"

To each their own of course I can tell you for sure Kyle really likes the feel of the new 700, and forced to choose between the 700XX and the new 700, he'd take the new 700. Again, to each their own.

But I'll propose the video below should rule out the term "...big fat pig..." when describing how the 700XX flies

Kyle Dahl - Freestyle | Heli Masters 3D World Series 2013 (3 min 28 sec)


(-: Dave
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Old 05-22-2016, 02:32 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dahld View Post
Quote from a post above: "So the xxtreame is a big fat pig to fly hence I should stay away from the for sale section"

To each their own of course I can tell you for sure Kyle really likes the feel of the new 700, and forced to choose between the 700XX and the new 700, he'd take the new 700. Again, to each their own.

But I'll propose the video below should rule out the term "...big fat pig..." when describing how the 700XX flies



(-: Dave
He was being sarcastic I think Dave.
Kyle is the man, he could make a brick with rotors look ballistic.
The xx isn't going away because it is the best 700 ever made... I find it strange that there is such a general reluctance to face that reality.

From the flight reports I've heard from others, I'm pretty pumped for the new 700. It's everything we'd hoped for the first time around apparently. Should help mikado regain some of their market share.
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Old 05-22-2016, 04:48 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dahld View Post
Quote from a post above: "So the xxtreame is a big fat pig to fly hence I should stay away from the for sale section"

To each their own of course I can tell you for sure Kyle really likes the feel of the new 700, and forced to choose between the 700XX and the new 700, he'd take the new 700. Again, to each their own.

But I'll propose the video below should rule out the term "...big fat pig..." when describing how the 700XX flies

(-: Dave
Yes I was messing around Dave with the "big fat pig " comment no offense intended. Although with all the reports of the xxtreame being heavy and short flight times I still can't help to wonder I would really like to have one in my fleet! With a particular deal Iv come across there is a xxtreame for $1000 with good electronic and if I don't like how it flys I can purchase the new 700 and transfer the electronic across and still be in front!!
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Old 05-22-2016, 05:43 AM   #19 (permalink)
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You can also use the new head on the xx.
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Old 05-22-2016, 07:22 AM   #20 (permalink)
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We have to respect NTM's personal feeling for the XXtreme, some expected more and thats fine. However we also know the xxtreme is a very rigid design and one of the best competition machines in the market. With a good setup it is more then nimble enough for 99% of us pilots, and it tracks big air like a train ! Correct... it "eats" batteries at 2050 rpm but you can do "a lot" at 1650-1950 too... Even without the collective skills Kyle has we managed to place 3 "fat pigs" on the local F3N podium last year...
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