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Old 11-25-2021, 01:33 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Flybars!

Is there a niche group somewhere in this large forum for people who still do helis with flybars?

I'm setting up one because:
A) I want to take a walk down memory lane
B) I've forgotten what it was like to use flybars {they must have worked- I learned on them}
C) I'm a crazy masochist
D) All of the above.

Anyway, after a not so optimal experience with just sticking some parts together and trying to fly one of these things (not a disaster, but exciting) I realize that there is much to learn over, and some questions I want to ask.

Where to go for kindred souls?
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Old 11-25-2021, 02:03 PM   #2 (permalink)
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You can continue to post here or try and see if there is a dedicated forum for your heli.

What kind of flying are you into?
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Old 11-25-2021, 02:13 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HedgeHeli View Post
You can continue to post here or try and see if there is a dedicated forum for your heli.

What kind of flying are you into?
I do sport/big air flying along with some occasional risky business. My weapons of choice are my faithful old Trex 500 ESP machines, all of which were probably flybarred back in the day but have long since been converted to FBL.

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, and all of that jazz.
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Old 11-25-2021, 02:24 PM   #4 (permalink)
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IMHO: The flybar is still the easiest to setup and fly, as long as you are Sport flying.
There was a whole, long thread in the MSH Brain section on how to setup the Brain2 / iKON2 to feel more like a flybar and less like a flight controller.

I used to be able to do an a tail-down hurricane on my Raptor 90 and Trex 700 when they had flybars. As soon as I went to a FBL flight controller, I can't do them for sh!t.
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Old 11-25-2021, 02:24 PM   #5 (permalink)
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That style of flying is all good for flybars. I think you’ll be surprised at how locked in they can be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2400rdr View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by HedgeHeli View Post
You can continue to post here or try and see if there is a dedicated forum for your heli.

What kind of flying are you into?
I do sport/big air flying along with some occasional risky business. My weapons of choice are my faithful old Trex 500 ESP machines, all of which were probably flybarred back in the day but have long since been converted to FBL.

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, and all of that jazz.
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Old 11-25-2021, 02:44 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I'm a huge fan of flybar helicopters. I learned on a Trex 450 Sport (V1) and then moved up to 500. Both belt drives. Then bought a 500 torque tube that was FBL, and converted back to FB.
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Old 11-25-2021, 03:57 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I can't do a tail-down hurricane flybarred or flybarless, so the subtler distinctions are lost on me. I just love not having to deal with that intricate mechanical mechanism in the head anymore. (That said, I'm steeling myself to sit down with the Vbar software and spend an hour tweaking digital adjustments--to say nothing of having had to download USB drivers--so maybe it's not such a big gain after all.)

Looking at how mechanical stabilization works, I am still so impressed by how Sikorsky et al figured out how to make it all work in the first place. (I love the story about Cierva flying wicker autogyro models off his roof).

But like I said, I need to get busy programming my newer, simpler flybarless system for a couple of hours... )
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Old 11-25-2021, 05:17 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbormaster View Post
I can't do a tail-down hurricane flybarred or flybarless, so the subtler distinctions are lost on me. I just love not having to deal with that intricate mechanical mechanism in the head anymore. (That said, I'm steeling myself to sit down with the Vbar software and spend an hour tweaking digital adjustments--to say nothing of having had to download USB drivers--so maybe it's not such a big gain after all.)

Looking at how mechanical stabilization works, I am still so impressed by how Sikorsky et al figured out how to make it all work in the first place. (I love the story about Cierva flying wicker autogyro models off his roof).

But like I said, I need to get busy programming my newer, simpler flybarless system for a couple of hours... )

One of, if not the first helicopter to use electronic stabilization was the AH-1 Cobra. The rotor system was the same as the UH-1 Iroquois except they removed the stabilizer bar and replaced it with a three axis rate gyro system.


Jump to 1:05:


AH-1G HUEY COBRA ARMAMENT SYSTEMS HELICOPTER MINIGUN w/ TURRET 84194 (6 min 53 sec)
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Old 11-25-2021, 05:55 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Oh, that's really interesting. I hadn't realized that helicopters from that era had electronic flight stabilization yet. I guess when you're firing a 30mm cannon having some extra stabilization is nice to have...
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Old 11-25-2021, 08:19 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Oh, that's really interesting. I hadn't realized that helicopters from that era had electronic flight stabilization yet. I guess when you're firing a 30mm cannon having some extra stabilization is nice to have...
Makes me wonder why Lockheed spent so much time fiddling with the mechanical stabilization on the AH-56 instead of just doing what Bell did with the AH-1 and getting rid of it in favor of a electronic gyro system. Getting that right dragged out development and probably contributed to it's cancellation (though the Air Force lobbying hard against it didn't help things either up to the point that they developed the A-10 so they could try to claim duplication of capabilities). It's unfortunate because the AH-56 was arguably a better platform than the AH-64 that would come a decade later.


The Lockheed AH-56 is such a sad story, so much potential lost due to political infighting. Shows how politicians and the military brass cared more for themselves than the good of the nation.



Lockheed AH-56 Cheyenne, possibly the best attack helicopter never made (17 min 7 sec)
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Old 11-26-2021, 03:47 AM   #11 (permalink)
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You have questions and are looking for answers.....
https://www.helifreak.com/forumdisplay.php?f=60

One stop solution
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Old 11-26-2021, 09:48 AM   #12 (permalink)
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First up I do think that this is an excellent set of vids and pointing someone at them provides them with an invaluable resource.

However for social hobbies the best and worse of the internet is laid bare here. The idea that we should no longer discuss stuff because it was all discussed back in - name your year. I like talking and where possible imparting knowledge. It’s not uncommon to see references to searching for yourself but this then precludes conversation and hence forums die. I have recently got into a new to me very old hobby and thankfully there are still people willing to chat about stuff that for them is as simple as setting up a flybar or configuring a radio/FBL set up to us. So yes do some research but for the sake of the hobby chat about stuff.


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You have questions and are looking for answers.....
https://www.helifreak.com/forumdisplay.php?f=60

One stop solution [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.helifreak.com/images/smilies/thumbup.gif[/IMG]
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Old 11-26-2021, 09:54 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HedgeHeli View Post
First up I do think that this is an excellent set of vids and pointing someone at them provides them with an invaluable resource.

However for social hobbies the best and worse of the internet is laid bare here. The idea that we should no longer discuss stuff because it was all discussed back in - name your year. I like talking and where possible imparting knowledge. Its not uncommon to see references to searching for yourself but this then precludes conversation and hence forums die. I have recently got into a new to me very old hobby and thankfully there are still people willing to chat about stuff that for them is as simple as setting up a flybar or configuring a radio/FBL set up to us. So yes do some research but for the sake of the hobby chat about stuff.
This is an extremely good point.
I didn't like being told to "go search", mainly because the search function here sucks.

Over at RCG, they will tell you in no uncertain terms that things have already been discussed.
And then point you to one of their infamous 4,000 post threads.
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Old 11-26-2021, 10:33 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HedgeHeli View Post
First up I do think that this is an excellent set of vids and pointing someone at them provides them with an invaluable resource.

However for social hobbies the best and worse of the internet is laid bare here. The idea that we should no longer discuss stuff because it was all discussed back in - name your year. I like talking and where possible imparting knowledge. Its not uncommon to see references to searching for yourself but this then precludes conversation and hence forums die. I have recently got into a new to me very old hobby and thankfully there are still people willing to chat about stuff that for them is as simple as setting up a flybar or configuring a radio/FBL set up to us. So yes do some research but for the sake of the hobby chat about stuff.

I also agree.

But with subject(s) this far encompassing and all the possible side marker questions involved....
IE .Setting up a mechanical flybar and possibly radio setup.
It serves as to direct to a complete explanation for clarity and time sake.
With a specific and / or singular question, it would be far easier and social to directly answer the inquiry.
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Old 11-26-2021, 10:52 AM   #15 (permalink)
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It's all good. nightflyr pointed to some great resources and it's fair game to ask questions. I'd post them in the dedicated forums for your helis first since many people from back in the day are likely still suscribed. if you don't get response, ask here since like mentioned many people will be glad to discuss them.

I have my original TREX 450 SE still flybarred and I keep threatening to put a new receiver in it and bring it back from the dead. My first few years on that heli were some of the best times I ever had in this hobby. I had a TREX 500 as well and that thing flew great! I eventually gave it to a friend.

Rick
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Old 11-26-2021, 11:03 AM   #16 (permalink)
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In the back of the Miniature Aircraft Fury 55 manual there is a pretty good explanation to setting up a flybar machine. It may be different than your particular model but the procedure is the same. Check out pages 45 to 48.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/82...page=45#manual
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Old 11-26-2021, 12:39 PM   #17 (permalink)
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RE: Go Search
One of the nice features browsers have is they let you search one specific site from top to bottom and inside-out with one command:
If you can get precise with the search term, you will find gold in them there web-sites.
In the address bar, type in:
TERM1 TERM2 TERM3 site:SITE_URL

in Firefox, if you type "flybar site:https://helifreak.com/" (with no quotation marks) in a new tab's address line, you get a list of about 10,000 posts that have the word "flybar" in them.
It isn't perfect, but if you stack search terms, you may be able to get the results down to less than 10.
It works on almost any web site.
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Old 11-26-2021, 12:47 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I'm the OP, and I have done a lot of flybar setup in the past, and have been through the finless Bob videos many times years ago.

I probably should have made it clear that I need a quick refresher, and also want to ask a question about a bizarre issue I have with the FB 500 I just setup. It could be a mistake in my setup, or it might be a goofy servo.

Bob is cool but sitting through basic setup won't get me troubleshooting info.

One other question I wanted to ask is about FB capability as compared to FBL. On FBL when I'm in fast forward flight I can push the rudder over and continue straight and level while the bird pirouettes on the axis of the mainshaft. Logic tells me that this may not be possible with FB, and knowing how quickly things can go off the rails with helis I figured that it'd be better to ask rather than just trying it. LOL Anyone know?

THX!
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Old 11-26-2021, 12:48 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ticedoff8 View Post
RE: Go Search
One of the nice features browsers have is they let you search one specific site from top to bottom and inside-out with one command:
If you can get precise with the search term, you will find gold in them there web-sites.
In the address bar, type in:
TERM1 TERM2 TERM3 site:SITE_URL

in Firefox, if you type "flybar site:https://helifreak.com/" (with no quotation marks) in a new tab's address line, you get a list of about 10,000 posts that have the word "flybar" in them.
It isn't perfect, but if you stack search terms, you may be able to get the results down to less than 10.
It works on almost any web site.
Thanks for that info!!

I knew it was possible, but I always forgot to make a note of how to do it.
(yes, this time I remembered)
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Old 11-26-2021, 01:00 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
One other question I wanted to ask is about FB capability as compared to FBL. On FBL when I'm in fast forward flight I can push the rudder over and continue straight and level while the bird pirouettes on the axis of the mainshaft. Logic tells me that this may not be possible with FB, and knowing how quickly things can go off the rails with helis I figured that it'd be better to ask rather than just trying it. LOL Anyone know?
So, the question relates to how quickly the cyclic will go off the rails while continuously pirouetting with a FB v. FBL?
IMHO: Regardless of FB or FBL, cyclic will go off the rails as soon as you try to correct for any cyclic changes during the rotations where your cyclic inputs are out of phase with the tail's position at the time.
The perfect pirouette depends greatly on the CG of the heli. If the CG is not right directly on the main mast and/or the airframe is slightly tilted when you start the pirouettes, then you are going to have to correct with cyclic to keep it looking like it is pirouetting on the main mast.
If your cyclic inputs are out of phase, then it goes off the rails.
The big difference will be that the FB will naturally dampen any cyclic input and try to return to "level" while the FBL will act like a heading-hold gyro and maintain whatever cyclic tilt you input.
So, effectively, you are "fighting" the FB with your cyclic input while the FBL is locking it in.
With old-school RC heli instructors, that were using FB equipped heli, they would tell students that when they get into trouble, center the sticks before you try to recover. The FB was acting as a cyclic "Rescue".
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