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AP and Scale Discussions for Scale, Multi-blade and AP applications using CSM Cyclock, Helitronix Multi-mixer, Spartan AP2000i, Firmtronix, Digimix-3.


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Old 01-08-2007, 04:11 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Virtuall flybar for AP applications?

I was just checking this out:
http://www.espritmodel.com/index.asp...OD&ProdID=5404

And it occurred to me that it might be possible to create a very smooth and stable AP heli using a system like this. The setup is $200 and that includes a heading hold gyro - so call it ~$60 over the cost of a 401. Looks like you need a new head too - at $179 for the Logo, so $240 to go this way.

The marketing blurb claims less sensitivity to wind, reduced drag, lighter total weight, and it brings you coffee. :wink:

Anyone played with one of these? Anyone want to speculate how much advantage (if any) this would bring to an AP ship?
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Old 01-08-2007, 04:56 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Did you read entire page?
"Preorder only! Full price is $1099.00, and the $899.00 difference will be charged when the product ships"
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Old 01-08-2007, 06:27 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I'm switching my R50 over to flybarless using the AP2000i and 2 gyros to see how it would be for AP. If all goes as expected I'll probably do the same for my Intrepid gasser. Weather willing I'll be able to give it a go this weekend.
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Old 01-08-2007, 01:09 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panomaniac
Did you read entire page?
"Preorder only! Full price is $1099.00, and the $899.00 difference will be charged when the product ships"
When I first read this I thought you were joking. Went back and re-read the page a few times before I finally found this statement discretely tucked in right under the banner at the top of the page. Easy to miss.

Oh well, at that price it is much less interesting.

Mark Webber - I forgot the AP2000i does flybarless. So with 2 additional gyros and no IR sensor, do you think the heli could hover in position hands off? Obviously sensor calibration would no longer be an issue, but what else would be different? Seems it would hold the orientation you put it in vs seeking "level" with the IR sensors.
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Old 01-08-2007, 06:05 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
The marketing blurb claims less sensitivity to wind, reduced drag, lighter total weight, and it brings you coffee.
The Virtual Flybar System is just a glorified gyro + CCPM mixer. The scale model guys have been using this arrangement for quite some time.

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So with 2 additional gyros and no IR sensor, do you think the heli could hover in position hands off?
No it will hover just as if it had a flybar. The flybar is a mechanical gyro after all, but in some way it is susceptible to wind/gusts or can make the heli pitch up/down when flying at high speed. The electronic gyros won’t. You can still use the IR sensor to add hover stabilisation.

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Old 01-08-2007, 07:53 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
You can still use the IR sensor to add hover stabilisation.
so what would be the advantage of adding gyro's to a flybar equipped chopper that is using th IR sensor? Any added benefit?
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Old 01-08-2007, 08:01 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
so what would be the advantage of adding gyro's to a flybar equipped chopper that is using th IR sensor? Any added benefit?
Probably none. You can just achieve the same effect by increasing the flybar weights. And when the AP-2000i stabiliser is switched on it takes over anyway.

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Old 01-08-2007, 09:01 PM   #8 (permalink)
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CSM is in the process of testing one that should be a lot cheaper. I think you just pull the fly off your old head.

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Old 01-08-2007, 09:45 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I don't know about cheaper. The posts I've seen mentioned using 2 CSM 720's with it. Something like $230 each, I think. I didn't get the impression that it was geared toward AP. I may be wrong.
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Old 01-09-2007, 12:51 AM   #10 (permalink)
 

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going flybarless means about 20% more efficiency. could be worth it in mission critical jobs. Vstabi was only 500euro when it was first available. now with mikado in the loop, it went up by 2x. oh well. I think we will see more such technology becoming cheaper and more available. wait till we see these things from asia.
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Old 01-09-2007, 06:33 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Another benifit of removing the flybar is removing another source of vibration. Personally, I've occasionally had difficulties tracking the paddles. It seems more difficult to get them right. Don't have to worry about that now on my R50
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Old 01-09-2007, 10:56 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkWebber
I don't know about cheaper. The posts I've seen mentioned using 2 CSM 720's with it. Something like $230 each, I think. I didn't get the impression that it was geared toward AP. I may be wrong.
Mark, I just looked at the reports on RR and it probably won't be cheaper. Not only does it require 2 720s it still needs a third gyro in general for the tail.

Something else to think about is if you put it in I would thing there would be less possible damage as well as less parts to replace without the flybar.

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Old 01-09-2007, 11:07 AM   #13 (permalink)
 

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it is definitely simpler. you do need stronger servo and shorter servo arm as well. I know that Vario use really soft damping on their flybarless setup on their silence.
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Old 01-09-2007, 04:47 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
going flybarless means about 20% more efficiency.
I never thought about this and you are right, it will be more efficient. But it seems to me 20% is too much. It makes a significant impact on helicopter performance and if it was true all helis would have switched to flybar-less by now.

Here is another advantage of flybar-less that I thought… if you use the same heli for AP and 3D you could easily change the gain of the gyros to accommodate both needs. Shifting the flybar weights is a lot more hassle. Also, you could mix cyclic to reduce gyro gain and thus allow much faster flip/roll rate than a flybar equipped heli.

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Old 01-10-2007, 10:39 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Default mikado v bar

With the Vbar setup from Mikado, you are going to remove your existing gyro, and keeping the tail servo. The unit replaces the tail gyro. I believe you guys have it mixed up with the Helitronik mixer that the scale guys are using which require additional gyros!! Not with the setup from Mikado. The only thing that you are required that is not included in the kit is the flybarless head priced at around 180. And the Vbar itself is around 1000+ ( readyheli )
Hope this clears up some of the confussion! Cheers


http://andreas-s.macdisk.de/mikado/mikado_news_2006.pdf
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Old 01-11-2007, 06:55 AM   #16 (permalink)
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And another small benefit that I've noticed not having a flybar. You can lay the heli on it's side without the flybar getting in the way. It might seem like nothing but sure is nice
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Old 01-12-2007, 01:08 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Been reading more on the flybarless heli's and this certainly looks like the way of the future - besides a more precise and controllable heli, it looks like efficiency and available power go up significantly.

So I wonder how using the AP2000i for a flybarless conversion would compare with the Logo V bar? Obviously the AP2000i setup will cost less (about 1/2 once you add the gyros), but it lacks the air pressure sensors.

Any reports on actual use of the AP2000i without a flybar?
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Old 01-12-2007, 01:43 PM   #18 (permalink)
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The big thing is not eCCPM mixing, which the AP-2000i can do, but being able to "tweak" the gyros for different flight characteristics. I'm going to get a couple of CSM 720 gyros and try the "tweaks" that Colin's has been developing for use in his own flybarless tests. I'll use the AP-2000i to do the eCCPM mixing.
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Old 01-12-2007, 02:10 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oscillator
Been reading more on the flybarless heli's and this certainly looks like the way of the future - besides a more precise and controllable heli, it looks like efficiency and available power go up significantly.

So I wonder how using the AP2000i for a flybarless conversion would compare with the Logo V bar? Obviously the AP2000i setup will cost less (about 1/2 once you add the gyros), but it lacks the air pressure sensors.

Any reports on actual use of the AP2000i without a flybar?
My understanding is the air tubes are only to prevent pitch up during high speed FF and BF. I don't do high speed FF when I'm doing AP :wink:

I read many on the vbar threads state you don't really need the tubes.
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Old 01-12-2007, 07:08 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Any reports on actual use of the AP2000i without a flybar?
I'm just about done with the conversion. Just waiting on the last gyro to show up. I should have had it here before now. I'm thinking I might pull the one off my gasser if the weather allows for a test flight tomorrow or Sunday. I will definately post results when I get it going.
I've already got an accomplished pilot lined up to try it out for 3D. It's not so pretty when I'm flying 3D That I'll get video of too.
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