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Old 09-08-2016, 10:19 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Mine flys fine, tail holds with whatever I can throw at it keeping in mind that this ain't no Oxy3. The 250 is a lot better build, more powerful and flys better than the 230, whether it is worth the extra money is something each person will have to decide for themselves.
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Old 09-09-2016, 08:05 AM   #42 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=Probably not. Hard to tell until we crash one [/QUOTE]

Well, I crashed one. Low altitude, very fast hard banking turn. Frame 90 degrees to the ground, misjudged. I wish I could say it was wind, or a deer distracted me (that has happened), but this time, I just flew it into the ground. Basically it was a rotor disk strike, and then a fierce tumble. This was not one of those blade strikes and replace the main gear; this thing was balled up. Luckily, I keep a good stock of spares for my helis and between the 300 CFX and the 230 S, I had what I needed.
Damage:
trashed the blade tips ($29.00 USD USD)
about 6 teeth missing off the main gear ($.4.99 USD)
blade grip links popped off one still connected to the swash plate, the other, lost (one link, $1.50 USD)
The metal link post from one plastic blade grip pulled out and is missing (This screwed back in and I put some CA on it to keep from backing out)
Blades struck the tail boom, ding and slight bend. ($12.34 USD)
Tail rotor trashed ($2.00 USD)
FYI Canopy survived, no damage (Yay!)

So cost of repair with blades: $48.99.00 USD Without blades: $20.83 USD. With Lynx 3D Plastic Blades $33.83
So this is just one crash and the frame took no damage. Just for comparison sake:
230 S frame: 7.99, 250 CFX frame 26.99 Difference $19.00 USD
230 S blades: 9.99, 250 CFX Blades: $29.00 USD, Difference $10.01 USD

So for this crash, the big difference was the price of the blades.

But over all, the blades are the big difference, and the reason I say this and not the frame is because, I have had the 230 S since the day it came out. I have hundreds of flights on it (lost count) and I have repaired it more times than I want to admit (it is my training heli). I am going to make a statement here. For the crash my 250 CFX just endured, the 230 S frame would have been damaged. The 250 CFX frame took no damage (solid). While the 230 S frame is only $7.99 USD, that is a total rebuild, not a quick fix. (ugggh). This is not to say when you auger in from high altitude that carbon fiber frame will survive. But I think with the low mass of the heli, the frame will be fairly durable. (more than the 230 S anyway)

I am not making a claim that the 250 CFX is better than the 230 S. (I like them both) I am just reporting the damage and my conclusion on the crash. Value is based on the individual needs, desires, and situation.

I questioned the decision to buy this heli since I had a 230 S, and I have seen the question asked here as well. I got my personal answer yesterday. I crashed my 250 CFX and put it on the table. I popped a battery in my 230 S and kept training. (Flew 3 more batteries) So for me ... yes. "More helis, more better".
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Old 09-09-2016, 08:22 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dlm4001 View Post
While the 230 S frame is only $7.99 USD, that is a total rebuild, not a quick fix. (ugggh). This is not to say when you auger in from high altitude that carbon fiber frame will survive.
The nice thing about the CF frame, especially the CFX design, is you can replace a frame side without disturbing anything else except for maybe some wiring. Not even the servos have to come off.
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Old 09-09-2016, 08:24 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Good report, thanks.
So, after flying the 250, does the 230 feel weak- that something is annoyingly missing?
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Old 09-09-2016, 09:34 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Got mine today and I have tail hold issues in any mildly aggresive pitch type change positive or negative upside down. I have two 230s and 3d the crap out of them and my tail holds fine with them ? Same transmitter configuration so I am really stumped why my tail won't hold. I am in 3D mode
anyone else with this issue right now it is scary to fly dealing with the tail.

45C 1300 pack
I know that is frustrating. A few things to check. I know your heli is new, so many of these may not apply. I know that most of you know this stuff already. I am not trying to play expert.

I chased some tail blow out in my 230 S. Some days it held solid, and some days it did not. I could not believe that this was just environmental influences, so I experimented. Anything that imparts a rotation force, or a vibration, appeared to increase my problem. Some things I experimented with.

Gear mesh: While too tight is hard on your motor bearings and causes friction, too loose causes a backlash. That little bit of space relates to a delay in gear contact, and a spike in rotation force when the teeth 'collide'. I purposely loosely meshed my gear (lot of backlash) and tested. The tail response was sloppy. Some good methods of meshing are posted here already.

Blade balance: Stabilization units hate vibration. With optional carbon fiber blades on my 230 S, after they got some tip damage, the heli started flying differently, including tail blow out. I put on new blades and the tail held.
2nd scenario, I put on a new set of blades and the tail was sloppy. I checked the balance on the blades and the center of balance was off. They matched over all weight, but the centers were off. I matched centers, then balanced and the tail held. (yes, new blades can be off). Many people don't balance blades. On smaller helis, I usually don't unless I suspect a problem. Remember to match centers first if you do.

Blade Grip Tension. For A23X helis, I never completely figured this out, but, I made some observations. If the blades are really loose, and there is a head speed change or change in disk loading, the tail lags (blow out). If the blade grips are too tight, the tail seems twitchy, and ultimately blows out in a hard maneuver (change in disk loading). I understand how the physics of this can cause a surge in rotation force, but don't really have a method of getting it right. (I just tightent them until they feel right) In non-technical terms, I just know when mine are too loose it flies like crap, and when they are too tight, it flies like crap. On my 250 CFX this morning, I loosened the grips way too loos on purpose, and the tail was all over the place.

Main blade grip dampeners. If they wobble too much... A23X does not like it. They do wear out.

Tail rotor not true. We have all done it with the three blade "fan tail" rotors. Bend the blades back after something caused them to not be true. (close one eye, and look at the edge and bend the blades back in alignment.) But I have noticed that once the rotor is not true, or I have done this a couple of times, my tail starts to misbehave.

Tail rotor on wrong side out. I know yours is new, but there was a post in the 230 section about a new tail rotor being on backwards. This will really cause one to fly funny.. (Including possibly damaging your tail motor). They look backwards, when on correctly. Shiny side out. I just always look at the pitch and curve. Position one blade straight up. The curved edge should be towards the rear of the heli. If in doubt, look at the picture on the box.

Flat throttle curve verses V Curve. Some have said one is better than the other for maintaining tail hold. I have not tested, maybe someone else has a comment here? (maybe I will test that today) I am using flat throttle curves for IU1 (80%) and IU2 (100%).

Tail Rotor Gain: I use defaults at 100%. Since there are people flying defaults and have a manageable tail, I would not think this is the problem. Maybe someone who has adjusted the Tailrotor Adaptive Filtering could tell us about their experience.

Situational: There are situations where even a well working A23X with Tail Motor will have a tail blow out. I can cause mine to do it if I want to demonstrate to someone what it looks like. Fast Forward Flight with a tail wind, hard vertical decent with negative collective, hard elevator up, hard positive collective. The tail "vrrr" turns into a "vreeeeee".

Please, other people post what you did to improve the blow out. Maybe we should start a thread, "Managing the Motorized Tail"
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Old 09-09-2016, 09:57 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Good report, thanks.
So, after flying the 250, does the 230 feel weak- that something is annoyingly missing?
We probably need a range of pilots to answer this one.
Short Answer (Really? is Dennis capable of giving a short answer?)

I transition from the 230 S to the 250 CFX in either order. The 230 S flies well. While it has less power and little less response, it is lighter. To me, they feel similar. The 250 just has ... more edge. Definitely not annoying.
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Old 09-09-2016, 10:41 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Blades struck the tail boom, ding and slight bend. ($12.34 USD)
Since this is a 230 boom, you can get RKH colored booms, 2 for less than $12. If I remember right.
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Old 09-09-2016, 12:41 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Since this is a 230 boom, you can get RKH colored booms, 2 for less than $12. If I remember right.
And you do remember right. I just looked them up. ($11.99 USD)
Thanks Great info.
Also, Microheli has a carbon fiber tail boom for $6.50.USD
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Old 09-09-2016, 01:01 PM   #49 (permalink)
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And you do remember right. I just looked them up. ($11.99 USD)
Thanks Great info.
Also, Microheli has a carbon fiber tail boom for $6.50.USD
I like CF usually...during minor crashes they will not bend like a metal one so you don't have to worry about always bending back. But when you get into a hard crash where you hit the tail the CF will usually snap, whereas the metal one there is sometimes a chance to bend back. Sort of a wash, since if the tail strike is hard enough to kill the CF boom it will bend the metal boom bad enough to where it is not feasible to try and bend it back. Personal pref I guess, .50 more per boom is not a big deal.
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Old 09-09-2016, 01:12 PM   #50 (permalink)
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To me, they feel similar. The 250 just has ... more edge.
Agree 100%. This morning the wind was pretty brisk with gust up to 16mph. I wanted to fine tune the tail gain which now holds perfectly in IU1 and 2 and decided the wind didn't matter for this process. I'm pleased to report that the wind has very little effect compared to the 230S in high winds.

I do still have a little tail blow-out in Normal mode but who cares!!! I only take-off and land in this mode so it really does not matter.

With the tail rotor parameter "P" set at 150%, it is rock solid with no wag in hover or flight. This adjustment didn't seem to affect the tail in Normal mode. Very easy and quick to adjust the gain settings using a DX7-G2. Probably easy with any telemetry enabled Spektrum transmitter.

For those following the progress, easily getting 5 min on 1300mAh batteries with fairly hard flying. Can probably stretch to 6 min. if not doing a lot of acrobatics or 3d.
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Old 09-09-2016, 03:54 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Default Further shake down

More flights in and tweaking and I now have a good feeling for where this bird sits

I still had some tail spin when doing a pitch pump or in flips to inverted and back to upright. I would end up with about 30 degrees of rotation and some correction after load is released from cyclic. Also entry command of rudder was sluggish feeling. I was at 150 P already so I started with I gain and that helped the hold in pitch and cyclic. I ended with 150. I then started going up on the D gain and the response improved. This all makes sense as the model is heavier than the 230 and has the same tail power. So the tail motor would need to have signal to provide more power.

It was noted that the model is not as agile even in advanced as a 230. I noticed the controller is also turned up on peramater 4 cyclic response over the factor 100 already out of the box. I am going to go up for sure as coming over the top in piro flips is still slow and my stir is way outside to get her to come over as compared to the 230 whom flips quick and tight. I am hoping this parameter speed up the rate and is what is described as "response". Have to see.
It could be ATV has to go up over 100. I never had to adjust my 230 for this so never experimented. ATV on rudder slows the rate so I assume it is the same for ail/elv

Again I am running 1300 45c packs so they are heavier for sure. On an already heavy disc your needing more cyclic so the tail will feel it. I highly recommend keeping your packs light ! If you more than sport flying. Regular flight and sporty 3D felt good but it was a hog in a tic toc.

The model hovers way up on the stick and you need the extents for sure to horse it around 3D in comparison to the 230.

She is smooth and more precise than the 230 for sure

So with this pack I sure am not a fan yet.

I have 1000MAH packs I am going to try next...
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Old 09-09-2016, 04:23 PM   #52 (permalink)
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If you are doing all of this with the 250, we would like to see some video
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Old 09-09-2016, 04:42 PM   #53 (permalink)
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I'm not getting a 250 as I have progressed to the 270 and 360. But the crash results of dlm4001 are consistant with the superiority of a c/f frame, they just don't bust, and a 230 would have been mince meat in that crash. But my two bobs worth is why not just fly plastic blades from Lynx (either carbon plastic or plastic for $13). I fly them on my 270 and they are fine, a little less punchy though. They don't bust in a crash (most crashes) whereas the c/f blades break with the slightest hit. And are about half the price. No brain-er in my book.
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Old 09-09-2016, 05:00 PM   #54 (permalink)
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I'm not getting a 250 as I have progressed to the 270 and 360. But the crash results of dlm4001 are consistant with the superiority of a c/f frame, they just don't bust, and a 230 would have been mince meat in that crash. But my two bobs worth is why not just fly plastic blades from Lynx (either carbon plastic or plastic for $13). I fly them on my 270 and they are fine, a little less punchy though. They don't bust in a crash (most crashes) whereas the c/f blades break with the slightest hit. And are about half the price. No brain-er in my book.
I don't see how you stick with the plastics on the higher performing models. When I started flying my Oxy I never even put the stock CF blades and went straight to plastic and stayed there for near 200 flights. Recently changed to the stock CF blade and it is near night and day in response. The plastics were spongy by comparison. Never again. They are twice the cost, but worth it IMO. On the 250, as it was on the 230, probably only a minimum amount of difference. They do break easy though.
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Old 09-09-2016, 05:03 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Since this is a 230 boom, you can get RKH colored booms, 2 for less than $12. If I remember right.
They were $9 and change last time I ordered a RKH boom two pack.
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Old 09-09-2016, 05:10 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Blade Grip Tension. For A23X helis, I never completely figured this out, but, I made some observations.
I don't mean to be a prick, but since you typed it that way more than once, it's actually AS3X for the proprietary Spektrum units. Artificial Stabilization 3 aXis is what it stands for.
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Old 09-09-2016, 05:20 PM   #57 (permalink)
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I don't mean to be a prick, but since you typed it that way more than once, it's actually AS3X for the proprietary Spektrum units. Artificial Stabilization 3 aXis is what it stands for.
Mike,
You are not a prick for correcting something that may have been confusing to someone. I appreciate it more than I do my typing skills obviously. I know what it stands for, I guess I just can't connect my brain to the keyboard. Cheers
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Old 09-09-2016, 06:07 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Thumbs up 6 more flights

I will try to get a video this weekend !

I have more flights and more tuning as I fly it harder I needed more tail gain as I was still popping the tail out like a blade BL feel. I am now up to 175 P and 175 I gains and have no oscillations or slow drifts so I'm still not over on the gain ? The tail is now finally making the distinctive tail sound when it digs in that was missing prior. It is less aggressive than my 230 so I think I need a little more gain. I am not sure why I am needing this much gain ? but it is going in the right direction to almost perfect so it is what it is. The tail motors are mass production so possibly mine is a little lower KV ?

First on 1000mah 30C packs the heli feels a great deal more like a 230 but smoother.
The pitch comes on quick and strong I am thinking of a little pitch expo as a next tweak. The heli gets back that float feel that was missing. It also redirects with less pitch needed and less bog in tic tocs ect.

My 1000 are 100 grams and 1300 are 120 grams about 3/4 an ounce ? I am surprised that this little amount of weight has such a feel difference but it is noticeable.

I am sticking 1300 but wanted to try the lighter packs. I think I will keep an eye out for lighter 1200 to 1300 packs.

I am at 125 ATV now and the cyclic rate is feeling more like my 230 and the speed I am used to. I will probably try 130 and 135 as I need just a bit more rate to match my standard feel of my big machines. I am used to the rate of my tri blade goblin so take that into account but the 230 stock rate is quite fast.

More flights more feedback. It is weekend time !
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Old 09-11-2016, 05:49 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Blade 250CFX First flight (3 min 36 sec)
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Old 09-11-2016, 05:51 PM   #60 (permalink)
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That motor really screams. It it really that annoying sounding in real life?
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