Fun, Learning, Friendship and Mutual Respect START  HERE


Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Helicopters > Low Head Speed Helicopters


Low Head Speed Helicopters Low Head Speed Helicopter Setups and Flying info


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-04-2017, 09:27 PM   #1 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 6,005
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Default Logo 600SE Pitch ?

I was flying my 12S Logo 600SE today with one 6S pack. I have the Scorpion 4035-450 motor, 11 tooth pinion, Scorpion Tribunus 200 amp ESC, Rail 696mm Blades. I changed the tail blades to 105mm. I increased my pitch to 14 degrees. I was getting 1170 rpm at the beginning of the flight and 1050 rpm at the end. Flying for 8.5 min.

Does anyone know if I can increase the pitch ? Or is this good. I haven't tried flipping it yet. I wanted to make sure it was setup correctly.
__________________
Synergy 766, E7SE, E5SS, E5S, 516, V Control, Neo, Tribunus

Last edited by Freeskiken; 09-04-2017 at 11:23 PM..
Freeskiken is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 09-06-2017, 11:07 PM   #2 (permalink)
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Missouri,usa
Default

Don't have that motor or esc, but have a 450kv w. 11t on one of my 600se's
and fly it on 6s . But am only running around 11 degrees on both machines.
And they both do great as far as basic aeros, just have to watch your
moves much closer, not a whole lot of extra power cushion. But as of yet,
have never had a really close call running out of power/pitch, near the
ground.

But I think 14* would be plenty for sure, and have sometimes thought about
going up close to that just to see how it would be. Gary W. , I believe, flys
close to that pitch or maybe even a little more, and you see what he does
w. his helis

Oh, btw, this has all worked great for me using 693s up to the VTX697s,.

So I really think you will be happy at that pitch, IMO.
bikneli is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-07-2017, 01:58 PM   #3 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 6,005
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Default

Thank you. I am going to fly it more this weekend with the 6S pack and 14 degrees. It doesn't have much horse power like this. So....

In the future I am going to put a XNova 4035-300 motor in it and use 2 - 3300 mah packs in it. I am going to buy a 12 tooth and a 13 tooth pinion in case I want to increase the head speed a little later on. This will add a little extra weight but give way more power. I may have to back the pitch off a little with the added power ? I am just king of worried about the one way bearing on the 600SE at the higher pitch. But I was running 12.5 degrees before at a higher head spped so it should be OK.
__________________
Synergy 766, E7SE, E5SS, E5S, 516, V Control, Neo, Tribunus
Freeskiken is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-08-2017, 07:58 AM   #4 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 689
 

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Champaign Il
Default

For a given amount of power, higher headspeed, all else remaining equal, is actually lower torque loads on the one-way. power=torque*rpm, so when you lower rpms while keeping the same amount of power, you increase torque loads. That's how the old concept 60 got away with a little 6mm id auto bearing (well, most of the time, but still had some failures). i've always wanted to make a heli with the auto bearing in the pinion. torque loads would be roughly 1/10 what they are on the mainshaft (average around 10 to one on gearing, so spinning at 10 times the rpms of the mainshaft, just as an example). However, there's another problem with that. The one-ways have a max rpm rating, so when in an auto you're driving them the other way, at 10 times headspeed (or whatever your gear ratio is), which can put them over that rpm rating. that may be why the original big protos had problems with it and they changed the design.

With all that being said,.. on the lower cellcount at lower revs you're dramatically reducing power, so it should be just fine.

And by the way, I setup my machines with 16 pitch plus and minus, not 14 They're tweaked when flying after initial setup, so who knows it could be "way down low" at 14 now, haven't measured.
__________________
Gary Wright
Helifreak user # 7001
gwright is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-08-2017, 10:17 AM   #5 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 6,005
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Default

Thank you again Gary !!,

Hope you don't mind me quoting you....it is really helping me understand. My question to Gary about 6S or 12S low head speed on my Logo 600SE.

Quote;

There are two schools of thought on the cellcount thing, and neither is right or wrong, just different. Going 6s on a "normally 12s" setup is the quickest and simplest thing to do, and it obviously works. However, the low voltage doesn't allow very high power levels, so pitch must be kept at the normal levels. just my personal opinion here, but they feel very anemic. With 12s, and a sufficiently low kv motor, the negative is you have the weight of 12s (somewhat mitigated by using smaller batteries). This weight makes it difficult to get the tail acceptable on many helis, which is why I use long tailblades, longer tailshaft from 766 for more pitch movement, modified gears to get higher ratio. The positives are very low current (i only use an HV80 esc, and the 60 amp worked fine but machine was tailheavy so I figured better to have ESC overhead than just add dead weight), the ability to use a lot more pitch, and stump pulling power, not to mention a bigger gas tank (a lot more actually, as 6s/5000 is only 60% of the energy of my 12s/4350 setup). 6s setups normally see 50 or 60 amp peaks. 60 amps at 22.2 volts is 1332 watts, which is about 1.76 horsepower. My setup peaks at 60 amps (occasionaly, as some flights i never hit 50), and 60 amps on 12s is double the wattage, 2664 watts, for 3.53 horsepower. I asked Josh Moen to fly my 700 at an even earlier this summer. He's a very good pilot I trust and sometimes flies his super stretch E5 on a single 6s pack (it's a higher rpm 12s setup). He flies roughly 1100 on that, which is what mine was setup for at the time, before I raised it 100rpm. For almost the entire 16 minute flight he did with it I had to constantly here "damn,.. this has so much power, it just digs and digs and goes, no loading, I don't understand, it's the same rpm I fly at and I don't have that kinda power on 6s".

both ways work,.. but I think my way works a lot better. fly 6s a while and get comfortable with it, and maybe go lower kv later and up to 12s. you'll be so accustomed to 6s that even at the same rpm if you increase pitch appropriately it will feel like you doubled the power,.. which you will have done.
__________________
Gary Wright
Helifreak user # 7001
__________________
Synergy 766, E7SE, E5SS, E5S, 516, V Control, Neo, Tribunus
Freeskiken is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-18-2017, 09:21 AM   #6 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,530
 

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Santa Cruz
Default

Hopefully I'm not hijacking this thread.

If someone were to get a low kv motor for the logo 600se to setup for low head speed - what would be good options? Assuming 12s not 6.
I found I don't like mine with 6s it doesn't feel right.
__________________
Steve
smittylube is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-21-2017, 02:26 AM   #7 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,481
 

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sweden
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeskiken View Post
I was flying my 12S Logo 600SE today with one 6S pack. I have the Scorpion 4035-450 motor, 11 tooth pinion, Scorpion Tribunus 200 amp ESC, Rail 696mm Blades. I changed the tail blades to 105mm. I increased my pitch to 14 degrees. I was getting 1170 rpm at the beginning of the flight and 1050 rpm at the end. Flying for 8.5 min.

Does anyone know if I can increase the pitch ? Or is this good. I haven't tried flipping it yet. I wanted to make sure it was setup correctly.
How is torque affected by max pitch?
How much more likely is it to get a tail that does not hold well on a low RPM heli if max pitch is changed from, say 11° to 14°?

Increasing pitch at low RPM to get reasonable lift make sense, but I suspect there is a tradeoff. Has anyone experiented in search for the "sweet spot"? Higher torque also puts more load on e.g. OWB, motor and ESC.

Loosing control of tail during flip is a scary experience, IMHO…

Regards,
Bo
__________________
450s, 500s, 550s, 600 & 700s, Align, AlzRC, HK, Mikado, SAB, Tarot, XLPower, all electric.
svensson_bo_l is online now        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-21-2017, 09:25 AM   #8 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 689
 

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Champaign Il
Default

more pitch with the higher voltage setups I like results in far more load for the tail to deal with. 12s setups ran on 6s at 1000~1200 work with stock gearing because the power is so low. Go to a "proper" 12S low rpm setup and you've doubled the power (or more) at the same rpm, so you double the torque. However, you go to the higher pitch to get a great feel from collective, and you increase the torque even more. I hear of many 12s setups that use a jumper for one pack and just fly 6s,.. flying 10 minutes. If that's a 5000mah pack, flown down to 20%, then it's average 24 amps, or 24*22.2v if thought of as watts, which is 532 watts. Say you use a a low kv motor and proper gearing to use 12s and fly for the same time,.. then you're using 24 amps times 44.4 volts (using nominal 3.7v/cell), which is 1065 watts average. both of these are going to have peaks of about double that average. That's double the torque. However, you add a bunch of pitch to get good collective feel at the low rpm with 12s (and the lower kv and higher voltage will actually handle the added load now), I see peaks anywhere from 3 to 5 times average current depending on how aggressively I fly on a particular flight.Now you've not only doubled the torque, but increased it 3 to 5 times over the 6s setup.
__________________
Gary Wright
Helifreak user # 7001
gwright is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply




Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the HeliFreak forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your REAL and WORKING email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself. Use a real email address or you will not be granted access to the site. Thank you.
Email Address:
Location
Where do you live? ie: Country, State, City or General Geographic Location please.
Name and Lastname
Enter name and last name here. (This information is not shown to the general public. Optional)
Helicopter #1
Enter Helicopter #1 type and equipment.
Helicopter #2
Enter Helicopter #2 type and equipment.
Helicopter #3
Enter Helicopter #3 type and equipment.
Helicopter #4
Enter Helicopter #4 type and equipment.

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




Copyright © Website Acquisitions Inc. All rights reserved.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1