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Old 06-09-2008, 01:00 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default 90 Degree CPM Old Magic RC Heli

Hi to all.
  1. Just a few days ago a man donated some really old helis and heli gear to my Local Flying Field. I called the main man and he said that I could have any of it that I wanted. Sooooooooooo. I took it all. After looking it all over I saw that this was stuff from way back when... I mean the helis had mech gyros and a single stick JR radio. Like I was saying I saw that they would need some work and also that I could not use the stock raido so I went and bought a DX7. Now like some of you will know they did not have 120 Degree back then and since I have never set up anything other than CCPM I am at a loss. The reason I am writing this thread is because I need to know how to setup the mixing on these helis. Is it 90 degree CCPM or is it somthing else? Where do I plug the servos in? So to make this a little bit easyer I am going to make a list of the questions that I have and I am hoping that someone who is familar with this kind of heli will give me there thoughts. OH! And just so that you will know the servo layout is case you need it to help me out here it is. There are three servos one in front of the other. The one in the front has a servo arm linkage that is attached to the frame and when it is moved, it tilts all three servos to control the pitch. The second servo has a double sided arm that has linkages that attach to the swash in two diff places. The third one does the same thing as the second one. If you need pics please tell me and I will do my best to get some
  2. What kind of mixing does this heli take?
  3. Where do the different swash plate servos plug in to the RX?
  4. Does my DX7 have the function to control this heli?
  5. Is this more hard to setup than CCPM?
I forgot to say what kind of heli this was.:o It says on the canopy "Magic" and else where it says "Shluzer Magic" or somthing like that. Is there a manuel for this heli? Thanks you for all the help you can give me.
Michael
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Old 06-09-2008, 01:25 PM   #2 (permalink)
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http://www.iroquois.free-online.co.uk/magic.htm Not sure if this helps but I found this info on the heli. It will give you a better idea of what I have. I also found out some more about it. It is called the Robbe Schluter Magic and the manuel is in German so I can't follow it.
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Old 06-09-2008, 02:01 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmtecg View Post
Hi to all.
  1. Just a few days ago a man donated some really old helis and heli gear to my Local Flying Field. I called the main man and he said that I could have any of it that I wanted. Sooooooooooo. I took it all. After looking it all over I saw that this was stuff from way back when... I mean the helis had mech gyros and a single stick JR radio. Like I was saying I saw that they would need some work and also that I could not use the stock raido so I went and bought a DX7. Now like some of you will know they did not have 120 Degree back then and since I have never set up anything other than CCPM I am at a loss. The reason I am writing this thread is because I need to know how to setup the mixing on these helis. Is it 90 degree CCPM or is it somthing else? Where do I plug the servos in? So to make this a little bit easyer I am going to make a list of the questions that I have and I am hoping that someone who is familar with this kind of heli will give me there thoughts. OH! And just so that you will know the servo layout is case you need it to help me out here it is. There are three servos one in front of the other. The one in the front has a servo arm linkage that is attached to the frame and when it is moved, it tilts all three servos to control the pitch. The second servo has a double sided arm that has linkages that attach to the swash in two diff places. The third one does the same thing as the second one. If you need pics please tell me and I will do my best to get some
  2. What kind of mixing does this heli take?
  3. Where do the different swash plate servos plug in to the RX?
  4. Does my DX7 have the function to control this heli?
  5. Is this more hard to setup than CCPM?
I forgot to say what kind of heli this was.:o It says on the canopy "Magic" and else where it says "Shluzer Magic" or somthing like that. Is there a manuel for this heli? Thanks you for all the help you can give me.
Michael
Your age is showing a little me thinks.

120 CCPM was invented way back in 83-85 time frame. Vario came out with Tri Link frames for the Heim Star Ranger back in that era and we used Robbe CM Rex or Futaba PCM 8 radios to control the heli.

The Schluter Magic needs no CCPM software in the radio unless you just have to do it and then you will need 4 servo CCPM setup which the DX7 will not do, so it's really a moot point at best.

As far as setting up the heli, this is a really easy machine to setup and get flying. Maybe you can find an old curmudgeon like me that remembers these machines.............. wait a minute..............I think I have a flyable Magic sitting right behind me complete with radio gear and god forbid, a gyro that has flywheels in it.

It does help a mite if you were to fill out your location so we can direct you to some quality local help.

TM
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Old 06-09-2008, 03:24 PM   #4 (permalink)
 

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I had one of those. It's been a long time. It's mechanical mixing, so as far as the tx is concerned it's set up as if it's single-servo. The servo that moves the entire servo rack goes to the collective. The other two tilt the swash left/right and front/back. Connect the one that tilts the swash front/back to the elevator and the one that tilts the swash left/right goes to the aileron. The DX7 can handle this ok in the single-servo mode.
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Old 06-09-2008, 08:28 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TMoore View Post
Your age is showing a little me thinks
TM
Not sure what you mean but if your speaking of my writing I can explain. I was both using an i-Phone and I was in a rush. Thank you guys for your responses. I just have one more question... If I move the cyclic stick back, is the whole swash supposed to move back or is only one side supposed to? I am going to post a video soon showing the way my swash moves as of now and mabye somebody can tell me if it is correct.
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Old 06-09-2008, 08:31 PM   #6 (permalink)
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OH, and I almost forgot. I am from Flagler Beach, Florida, if mabye somebody can point out a place where I can get info on this heli.
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Old 06-09-2008, 09:05 PM   #7 (permalink)
 

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The tilt of the swash should follow the cyclic stick.... back stick = back tilt on the swash.
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Old 06-09-2008, 09:18 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vera View Post
The tilt of the swash should follow the cyclic stick.... back stick = back tilt on the swash.
Oh! I'm sorry to ask but can you tell me what kind of mixxing to use on my DX7? The 1 servo normal, the 3 servo 90 degree of something alse? And another thing... If I pull back on the stick are two servos supposed to move to get the swash to tilt back or is only one supposed to move? I really want to get these helis running but the mixxing is kind of confusing.
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Old 06-09-2008, 09:21 PM   #9 (permalink)
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by vera View Post
I . The other two tilt the swash left/right and front/back. Connect the one that tilts the swash front/back to the elevator and the one that tilts the swash left/right goes to the aileron. quote]
I understand what your saying but since it takes two servos to get the swash to move in any direction how am I supposed to know which one is what?
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Old 06-09-2008, 10:16 PM   #10 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=mmtecg;712932]
Quote:
I understand what your saying but since it takes two servos to get the swash to move in any direction how am I supposed to know which one is what?
ok.. its a 1 servo setup.

1 servo moves a "pitch tray" which has the single for/aft servo and the single left/right servo.

if you look at the pushrod layout, you should be able to tell how it works from then on. it probably uses a "push-push" pushrod setup. so both pushrods go to opposite sides of a servo arm. so it pushes on one to go forward or left, and "pushes" on the other to go aft or right

Honestly, with the age of the helicopter, parts are going to be slim to non-existent. Hang it up and use it as a discussion piece. not worth the hassle IMO
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Old 06-10-2008, 07:44 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
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The tilt of the swash should follow the cyclic stick.... back stick = back tilt on the swash.
NO, not on a System 88 control system. System 88 swashplate mechanisms rotated the swashplate by 45 degrees to get the ball links and hence the 90 degree bell cranks on the outside of the frames. The washout was rotated as well to compensate for the rotated swashplate.

This is no doubt what is confusing.

There aren't too many of us left that really know how these machines work.

Like I said before, I still have a flyable machine sitting behind my desk.

TM
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Old 06-10-2008, 07:45 AM   #12 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=invertmast;713022]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmtecg View Post

ok.. its a 1 servo setup.

1 servo moves a "pitch tray" which has the single for/aft servo and the single left/right servo.

if you look at the pushrod layout, you should be able to tell how it works from then on. it probably uses a "push-push" pushrod setup. so both pushrods go to opposite sides of a servo arm. so it pushes on one to go forward or left, and "pushes" on the other to go aft or right

Honestly, with the age of the helicopter, parts are going to be slim to non-existent. Hang it up and use it as a discussion piece. not worth the hassle IMO
You got one thing right.

TM
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Old 06-10-2008, 10:29 AM   #13 (permalink)
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[quote=invertmast;713022]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmtecg View Post

ok.. its a 1 servo setup.

1 servo moves a "pitch tray" which has the single for/aft servo and the single left/right servo.

if you look at the pushrod layout, you should be able to tell how it works from then on. it probably uses a "push-push" pushrod setup. so both pushrods go to opposite sides of a servo arm. so it pushes on one to go forward or left, and "pushes" on the other to go aft or right

Honestly, with the age of the helicopter, parts are going to be slim to non-existent. Hang it up and use it as a discussion piece. not worth the hassle IMO
Ok. That was helpful except for one thing. If you can awnser this than I'll be set. Is the whole swash supposed to tilt forward when I push the stick forward? Or is only one side supposed to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMoore View Post

Like I said before, I still have a flyable machine sitting behind my desk.

TM
Mr, TMoore, Since you have one right behind you I think your the one that I need to talk to. Can you tell me what you swash does to a given stick movement? Thank you for your time in this matter.
Michael

PS: I am not going to GIVE UP and quite this progect.
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Old 06-10-2008, 02:58 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Ok. That was helpful except for one thing. If you can awnser this than I'll be set. Is the whole swash supposed to tilt forward when I push the stick forward? Or is only one side supposed to?
The swash should tilt forward. If you add in aileron then it should tilt foward and to one side.
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Old 06-10-2008, 03:38 PM   #15 (permalink)
 
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Here is how the swash plate will tilt on the Magic for each command if I remember correctly. I flew Schluter helis with a system 88 rotor head for a few years.

Left stick all the way up- Swash should move up level
Down left stick Swash will move downward level.

Right stick fully down( Back) Swash will be tilted to the right and rearward
Right stick fully up ( Forward ) Swash will be tilted to the left and forward

Right stick fully left Swash will be tilted to the left and rearward
Right stick fully right Swash will be tilted forward and to the right

There is a 45 degree offset in the swash plate and then the wash out is offset 45 degs also. So that is why the swash plate movement to the stick movement is not the same as a heli that has the swash plate pick off points at 90 degs to the heli centerline.

The pick off points on the Schulter system 88 swash plate are at 45 deg points to the center line of the heli. The front two points are 45 degs to each side of center and the rear two points are 45 degs to each side of center.

You need to set the DX7 to one servo Swash or what ever they call it in the radio. The Schluter system 88 is mechanical mix on the swash plate. Only one servo moves the swash plate for collective changes.

There is three servos in a row on the Magic servo tray. One servo is stationary ( Collective). It is hooked to the other two servos that are on a rocking mechanism. These two servos are the left/right cyclic and the fore/aft cyclic servos. The stationary collective servo moves ( rocks) the other two servos to move the swash up and down. The two cyclic servos move the swash for the cyclic inputs.

David
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Old 06-10-2008, 03:52 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Here is how the swash plate will tilt on the Magic for each command if I remember correctly. I flew Schluter helis with a system 88 rotor head for a few years.

Left stick all the way up- Swash should move up level
Down left stick Swash will move downward level.

Right stick fully down( Back) Swash will be tilted to the right and rearward
Right stick fully up ( Forward ) Swash will be tilted to the left and forward

Right stick fully left Swash will be tilted to the left and rearward
Right stick fully right Swash will be tilted forward and to the right

There is a 45 degree offset in the swash plate and then the wash out is offset 45 degs also. So that is why the swash plate movement to the stick movement is not the same as a heli that has the swash plate pick off points at 90 degs to the heli centerline.

The pick off points on the Schulter system 88 swash plate are at 45 deg points to the center line of the heli. The front two points are 45 degs to each side of center and the rear two points are 45 degs to each side of center.

You need to set the DX7 to one servo Swash or what ever they call it in the radio. The Schluter system 88 is mechanical mix on the swash plate. Only one servo moves the swash plate for collective changes.

There is three servos in a row on the Magic servo tray. One servo is stationary ( Collective). It is hooked to the other two servos that are on a rocking mechanism. These two servos are the left/right cyclic and the fore/aft cyclic servos. The stationary collective servo moves ( rocks) the other two servos to move the swash up and down. The two cyclic servos move the swash for the cyclic inputs.

David
THAT my friends was VERY helpful!!! Thank you so much, thats all I needed to know.
Michael
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Old 06-10-2008, 04:16 PM   #17 (permalink)
 
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Here is the instruction manual for the Millenium 60. It uses the same type swash plate setup as the Magic.

Go to page 26 of the manual and it tells how to the swash is set up.
http://data.robbe-online.net/robbe_p...22_1-S2870.pdf

Maybe that will help you some.

There is a couple of people I know that still fly the Schluter helis.
Contact Slim Helson on this page. This guy use to be and maybe still is a Schluter guru
http://www.tshc.org/members/members.html
That club if you notice in the members , most of them flew Robbe/Schluter helis.

DAvid
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Old 06-10-2008, 04:28 PM   #18 (permalink)
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The only thing that I would add to what David said is that there are two versions of the System 88 collective setup. One version utilizes servo mounts where the servo pivots on the centerline of the servo mounts while the other version had the servos sitting up higher for more collective movement with less rock of the servos themselves. In addition, all of the servos on the initial System 88 machines like the Magic I, Junior 50 and Scout rocked with collective motion while the two cyclic servos were along for the ride.

TM
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Old 06-10-2008, 05:42 PM   #19 (permalink)
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That heli was my first 60 size and the one that I learned inverted flight with! I loved that machine!
One thing to NOT FORGET is that it has a 10:1 gear ratio, so if your motor will do 16000 rpm's that will be 1600 on the head! IOW, keep the head speed low if you want the motor to last.
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Old 06-10-2008, 08:58 PM   #20 (permalink)
 

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[QUOTE=mmtecg;712932]
Quote:
I understand what your saying but since it takes two servos to get the swash to move in any direction how am I supposed to know which one is what?
It's been 20 years, but best as I can recall it doesn't take 2 servos to move the swash. The tx should be set to 1-servo normal, and the collective channel from the radio goes to the servo that moves the rack. Collective moves the whole rack, which moves the other 2 servos mechanically which moves the swash up/down. Those other 2 servos tilt the swash in a push/pull manner.
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