Warp tail issues. Tail bobbing up and down. - HeliFreak
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:56 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Warp tail issues. Tail bobbing up and down.

As much as i like flying my Warp i have had issues with the tail since it was new.
First it eate away the tailbearings fast.
That was solved by changing to ceramic hybrid tail bearings and that cured that problem.
I have balanced the tail assemby as good as i can and until i switched one tailblade backwards for 2 flights the bobing tendencie have come back after turning the blades the right way again.
I suspect the bobing tendencies have something to do with vibrations in the tail as it go away with new tailbearings.
The suspission is the FBL unit pick it up and run the cyclic servos up and down elevator wize and it does so whatever i set cyclic gain to from realy low to tight.
The FBL unit is first generation Ikon, the one without polarity protection.

Im planning several solutions to the problem as balansing of the tail dont do anything.
Modding the tail to use 4x10x4 bearings instead of 4x8x3 as it does now.
Swapping out the old Ikon to Spirit Pro as vibrations dont affect it according to some threads on here.
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Old 07-14-2017, 11:06 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I had a bobbing issue with one of my scale builds. 4 blade tail anyway it turned out that under load center of tail blade bolt hole to center of hub was changing. The screws that retain the grip were a thread or so to long. This caused me a lot of grief. Just a thought.
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:32 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Do you have a video?

Is the nodding at the speed of the tail rotor, main rotor, or lower?
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Old 07-14-2017, 02:12 PM   #4 (permalink)
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The bobbing of the tail is not in synck with either tailrotor ore main rotor but alot lower like more in the range of to high gyro gain.
It allso only happens at serten headspeeds and it dissapears at least now after flying a few minutes like when bearings get warm and get tighter.
I thought it was to high gyro gain on the tail first but nothing i did to tail gain helped and now i have tested out different headgains to without any luck.
The only thing that have helped so far is new tailshaft bearings.

It have to be noted that the heli have been crashed 2 times since it was new and tailrotor, shaft and beairngs have been changed bought times.
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Old 07-14-2017, 02:14 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Have you looked at the Ikon's live vibration graph to see where the issue is? It may give you a clue as to where the vibration is being generated.

Personally, I would rather fix the issue than hiding it with a change of FBL (if that would even work). My Warp has no such issues (although it has plenty of others) so it's not an issue with the design of the heli.
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Old 07-14-2017, 04:57 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Its the first version Ikon in it, the one without polarity protection and it have no logging abilities either.
Swapping to an FBL unit with logging capabilities would help.
However the heli have no issues with rescue and there is no spesific noise frrom the tail.
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:10 PM   #7 (permalink)
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You might want to look at the main grip halves. Since the Warp doesn't use conventional damping some minute damage to the main grip halves might change characteristics. What you're describing sounds almost like a situation where damping is too hard and head speed is too low.

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Old 07-14-2017, 11:51 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Andersen View Post
Its the first version Ikon in it, the one without polarity protection and it have no logging abilities either.
Swapping to an FBL unit with logging capabilities would help.
However the heli have no issues with rescue and there is no spesific noise frrom the tail.
You're right, the first generation Ikon's have no logging but certainly on the one's with polarity protection you can see a live view of the vibrations (i.e. Heli running (blades off) and linked up to the software). I'm presuming that the pre-polarity protection versions can do this too as they run the same firmware.
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Old 07-15-2017, 01:16 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Do you have a photograph of the FBL unit installation?

I have seen some strange behavior due to tapping/flapping wiring close to where it enters the FBL unit.
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Old 07-15-2017, 01:54 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Andersen View Post
.....Swapping out the old Ikon to Spirit Pro as vibrations dont affect it according to some threads on here.
Vibrations will affect ALL gyros, the Spirit sensor is nothing special - it's all in the software.
Admittedly their software is getting very good, and they do some clever sensor fusion stuff
- but no user config advanced filtering.

Mounting on the Warp is not optimal due to the vertical contacts...

You can't really tell that I love my Spirit's by this post, can you
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Old 07-15-2017, 05:01 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Took the warp to the feald today and flew it 2 flights and at "mid" headspeed the tail bob up an down however going low ore high headspeed the bobbing tendencies is gone.

I allso spoke to some others in the club about these issue and he thought it could be becouse not correct CG, witch on these heli with my lightest packs is slightly tail heavy.

Have not flown the heli for a while with heavier packs as i use them for my Exo.
At least with the hobbywing Platinum Pro V3 Elf Gov i can fly just fine at 55% and 80% governor lines while 70% and 65% give tail bobbing.
At least what i have tryed so far.

Will try later with heavier packs to se if it affects these as they get CG right.

Heres pictures of my FBL unit and Current flight pack.
2x3S 1600mAh 20C Zippy Flightmax.
I have 4 sets of these packs and was the first packs i started flying the heli with so they have been with the heli as long as i have had it.


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Old 07-15-2017, 05:20 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Sounds like you are hitting that magical rpm where mainblades induces resonance in the tailboom, it can be rather violent depending on gain...

Mine flies with 1250 packs - 235grams, as far forward as possible - still a bit tail heavy.

No elevator oscillations from 1800 - 2050rpm
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Old 07-15-2017, 05:25 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I dont know what headspeed i get at 55% governor with the ESC and motor but its low and the heli fly around beautiful and allmoust scilent and is a joy to fly like these.
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Old 07-15-2017, 05:38 PM   #14 (permalink)
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There's bound to be an app for your phone...

... unless you're an old fart like me that don't carry them around...
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Old 07-15-2017, 06:03 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I have just got an app to tach the headspeed but have not done it with these heli yet.
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Old 07-15-2017, 06:57 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IamCxZ View Post
Sounds like you are hitting that magical rpm where mainblades induces resonance in the tailboom, it can be rather violent depending on gain...

No elevator oscillations from 1800 - 2050rpm
Maybe going back to 17T tail pulley wil help fight the resinance?
Changed to 19T pulley not many flights after it was new.
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Old 07-16-2017, 01:22 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Worth a try.

How does the HW 50A V3 handle 55% gov ?

...should get hot if one believe the marketing for the V4
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Old 07-16-2017, 08:25 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IamCxZ View Post
How does the HW 50A V3 handle 55% gov ?

...should get hot if one believe the marketing for the V4
Long story short, no it does not run hot during 55% governor flights and i sometimes run 5 1/2 minutes flights like that, it actually run cooler then the Kontronik Jazz 55 i started with and switched from as it did not like the Scorpion HK 2520-1360 and bogged badly when loading up the motor.
It worked better with the original Compass motor.
Hobbywing V3 run bought Scorpion and an Xnova XTS 2518-1580 in a Chase 360 well and handles bought motors fine at 55% governor TC.
The only thing worth mentioning is eir temps seldom pass 25 degree C. where i live and most of the time is beneeth 20 degree C so they run in cool air mostly.
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Old 07-16-2017, 10:31 AM   #19 (permalink)
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You may want to loosen up the wires to your FBL unit. You have sharp bends and bound them with zip ties pretty close to the unit. Any vibrations will be transmitted through the wires to the unit itself.

This is what Ah Clem was getting at.

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Old 07-16-2017, 11:43 AM   #20 (permalink)
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What Scott stated, immediately above, is exactly what I was getting at.

he sharp 90 degree bend in the wiring does not help the situation at all. The wires should be insulated in foam BEFORE they enter the FBL unit.so that they cannot transmit vibration into the unit.

The large/heavy mass if wiring tied together can also flap rhythmically where it enters the FBL unit and move the unit on its foam pad, causing nodding. T

A friend of mine had use wire loom on his helicopter (a V-Bar equipped machine) and, at a certain RPM, the tail wagged. No adjustment of gain would help. I turned out that one of the wires would flap back and forth, actually moving the FBL unit left and right very, very slightly. The FBL unit interpreted this as the helicopter yawing and attempted to correct for it-causing the machine to yaw.

If you look at the photograph attached, the wires on this installation leave the Robird and enter the slot in the frame which is insulated with foam tape, so that there can be no vibration transmitted by the frame to the FBL unit.(the receiver is inside of the frame).

Note how solid the tail is on this machine in all directions, in flight:

Old Warped Richard 20170606 Compass Warp from Experience RC (2 min 38 sec)


Wrapping the bundle of wires in foam tape on your installation, shortly before the wires enter the FBL unit should help. Put the tie wraps around the foam tape, not directly around the wiring.
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Last edited by Ah Clem; 07-16-2017 at 12:05 PM..
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