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Old 10-19-2017, 09:42 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Bell 206L-4 LongRanger 600 size

I believe I'm the 3rd owner of this fuse. Work was done to fitting the fuse halves together, installed front windows, horizontal stabs, decals, and fitted to a 50 size nitro mechanics.

I got it from a great guy name Tom. He's been very helpful after the sale. Neither of us can say for sure the maker of this fuse. Tom thinks Century sold it back in the day. There's no stamp on the fuse to indicate it's a FunKey.

I'm attempting to put my Trex 600EFL PRO in the fuse. The fuse itself has/had a few challenges I needed to sort out. I said has/had because I've solved some of the issues already.

This will NOT be a super scale project. I'm not that talented to produce the level of detail I've seen around. However, a few things will be incorporated that I feel I can handle, nav lights, cockpit, windows, and a few other things. Having said that, I welcome any and all suggestions, tips, help or otherwise.

Since the opening at the doghouse was continuous, I believe the fuse was made for fuel mechanics.So I needed to cut the doghouse for access to change batteries.My plan is to fabricate magnets at the top and bottom w/alignment pins on each side to secure the fuse halves together. Adding to the support of the front half will be the crossbar of the landing gear.

Another issue solved was the tail cone butted up to the tail w/o a lip to attach to. I fabricated tabs using gorilla glue and screws to attach to two pieces. I've measured several times the length and believe I'm very close to a perfect fit.

However, I predict an issue when the time comes to put the boom into the fuse. There's a support for the rudder pushrod. This support is about midway along the boom. There's also a cross member for the horizontal stabs. The cross member will be between the boom and pushrod. I think the cross member will prevent the boom to come back far enough to attach the tail assembly onto the boom. The pushrod has an aluminum section made into it where the support is suppose to be. QUESTION- If need be, is there a potential problem from moving the location of the pushrod support?
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Old 10-21-2017, 02:17 PM   #2 (permalink)
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She looking good . I like the tail fitting too.
The Heli body was purchas by my buddy who is a Centry rep. He bought it for another guy we fly with, I got it from him so you are the third owner and it did come from centry. Keep up th3 good work I like to see how ur windows turn out.
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Old 10-21-2017, 07:08 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7hvman View Post
She looking good . I like to see how ur windows turn out.
Will do. Just got home from club's funfly. Time to start stripping and fitting!

And thanks for the history.
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Old 11-09-2017, 08:28 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Default 206L-4

I got the Trex 600EFL in the fuse w/little problem. I needed to insert about 1" of spacers to get the height I needed for boom alignment. It helped w/the blade clearance too. I've got to take it apart again because the bottom led light came loose when I installed the mechanics and the two fuse halves aren't lining up perfectly on one side.

This pic was taken a few minutes before I did the 1st test flight. It was a windy day so I just hovered just to see how it flew. There was a noticeable vibration that needs addressed. And the batteries need adjustment to improve the cg. Other than that, I was happy w/the test flight.

The cockpit I ordered will help w/the cg issue. In order for the cockpit to fit, I'm still debating whether to cut the receiver mount or remove it and make another rx mount. Either way the bec/esc will be relocated.

There's still plenty to do on this model. I need to install all the windows, fabricate/install landing gear step, cut out for mesh in doghouse, install landing light, cable cutters.
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Old 11-10-2017, 08:37 PM   #5 (permalink)
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What's your drive train - motor, pinion, main gear - and head speed?
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Old 11-13-2017, 06:03 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getsuyoubi View Post
What's your drive train - motor, pinion, main gear - and head speed?
Been working, I'll check soon.
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Old 12-05-2017, 05:58 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getsuyoubi View Post
What's your drive train - motor, pinion, main gear - and head speed?
Sorry for the delay, here's the specs for my 600EFL PRO.
Motor 510KV
Pinion 13T
Main Gear 112T
Idle Up at 75%

Here's my calculation for headspeed.
Motor KV x Voltage x Motor Load x Pinion / Main Gear = headspeed
Headspeed x 75%
510KV x 47V x 85% x 13T / 112T = 2,365 rpm x 75% = 1,774 rpm

I saw where some were using 90% for motor load. Also I didn't know the common voltage to use for a 12s system. Anyway, that's what I came up with.

In my examination into the vibration, I'm suspecting the hard rubber mounts between the frame and fuse may be most of the issue. I'll double check blades and head balance soon. When I flew it p/b it seemed real smooth. However, I can imagine how vibrations can transfer to a fuse that were unnoticeable before.
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Old 12-07-2017, 06:52 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Most use 44.4 V (3.7 *12) as 12S "standard" voltage, as it represents voltage towards the end of the flight.

Most quality brushless motors are at least 90% effcient, some even more.

So: Motor Speed = (Kv * 44.4V) * 0.90 = (510 * 44.4) * 0.90 = 20379 RPM (@ 100%)
Gear Ratio = 112T / 13T = 8.61 :1
Motor Speed / Gear Ratio = Headspeed = 20379 / 8.61 = 2366 RPM (@100%)

Which is waaay too high for a scale Trex 600, IMHO. I run my 412 at 1650 (and she loves it)

You say you're running @75%, which is 2366 * 0.75 = 1775 RPM.
Better, but depending on which ESC you have - not good at all. If it is an active Freewheel unit (Mezon, Kontronic, YGE, etc)- you're okay. If it is not (CC), you risk having a burnt ESC from the excess heat being produced.

Re-gearing is the solution. A 12T would range 2186 (100%) to 1637 (75%). An 11T would give you 2001 (100%) to 1500 (75%). If that won't work, you can consider a cell change - drop to a 10S or 8S system - though you're amp draw will go up.

Hope that helps!

Last edited by Medic33; 12-07-2017 at 07:05 AM..
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Old 12-07-2017, 08:59 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Medic33 View Post
Most use 44.4 V (3.7 *12) as 12S "standard" voltage, as it represents voltage towards the end of the flight.

Most quality brushless motors are at least 90% effcient, some even more.

So: Motor Speed = (Kv * 44.4V) * 0.90 = (510 * 44.4) * 0.90 = 20379 RPM (@ 100%)
Gear Ratio = 112T / 13T = 8.61 :1
Motor Speed / Gear Ratio = Headspeed = 20379 / 8.61 = 2366 RPM (@100%)

Which is waaay too high for a scale Trex 600, IMHO. I run my 412 at 1650 (and she loves it)

You say you're running @75%, which is 2366 * 0.75 = 1775 RPM.
Better, but depending on which ESC you have - not good at all. If it is an active Freewheel unit (Mezon, Kontronic, YGE, etc)- you're okay. If it is not (CC), you risk having a burnt ESC from the excess heat being produced.


Hope that helps!
Thanks for your time and reply. I appreciate the help more than you know.

I've just been learning about freewheeling controllers. That's some pretty technical stuff to try to understand. I do have a CC ICE HV80 in the model now. I think the issue becomes because now it's in an enclosed fuselage there is a risk of it overheating. Is that correct? I'm asking because the idle up setting at 75% is what I used w/o issue when it was p/b.

Also, I've read that the tail ratio for a 600 PRO needs high rpm for good tail authority.Have you any opinion on that? I guess one thing I could do is get larger tail blades. That's assuming I get the head speed down some.
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Old 12-07-2017, 08:52 PM   #10 (permalink)
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So, Castle (for some unknown reason, possibly the legacy of the Ice1 spontaneous ignition ESC!!) has not yet gone to Active Freewheel in their controllers.

General rule of thumb for a CC ESC is to aim for the correct headspeed at around 85 to 95% throttle signal. This gives the govenor enough headroom to maintain headspeed, without running the ESC at such a low percent that in builds up large amounts of excessive heat (from the FETs absorbing unused power). Heat is the enemy of electrical things.

So your throttle signal at 75% is on the low end of okay. While it was pod and boom, with lots of airflow, you might have been okay (if it has logging, set it to record ESC temperature - that will give you a good idea of how happy it is). Now, going into an enclosed fuselage... less airflow for sure.

You have 5 options to get you into that sweet spot (in order of least $ to most $$$):
  • New motor pinion smaller tooth count
  • New Main gear with a larger tooth count
  • A different Kv motor (I'm using a 330Kv Scorpion in my Mi-24)
  • Different voltage (10S vs 12S)
  • A new, freewheel ESC

There are a lot of myths about what you can and can't do with the 600 mechanics. I say myths, because they generally are just repeated verbatim, without any testing. I have done some actual testing.

BTW - my mechanics are 1st Gen Trex 600E flybar(aluminum frame!). Sixy (yes, that's the helicopter's name) is in a Marvelcraft Bell 412 fuselage for the last 7 years. Weight is 12.5lbs. Power plant is 6S, Neu 1905 3Y motor, CC Phoenix HV85. Blades are 600mm (I honestly can't remember what brand they are now, they're painted), tail is 95mm Edge (I think, also painted!).

I have flown her at headspeeds ranging from 1350 to 1800. There is a range (a RANGE only!) around 1500-1525 she doesn't like - possibly related to the damper's natural resonance. So phbt on those who say you can't fly a Trex 600 below 1800 rpm. Governed headspeed is 1650rpm. I ran at the lower headspeed, and the amp draws were lower as well, but the ESC heated up more than I like, and she felt a bit sluggish. I do have an integrated fan on the ESC (comes on automatically with avionics power.

I've never had a problem with the tail holding at that headspeed. Ever. Many myths are related to the 3D guys. Scale guys don't fly like 3D guys. So what might not work great for Mr. "Aren't I the Coolest 3D 'feller" may work quite well for Mr "I am so cool I don't need to prove it to anyone" Scale pilot.

So, there are a number of options to bring your headspeed down. You're fortunate that you are still swinging only 2 blades - that keeps your torque production (and therefore anti-torque requirements down). Tail speed definitely becomes an issue on multi blade setups... Like, say for example, a certain Mi-24 I know so well...

ed
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Old 12-09-2017, 12:12 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Thanks for the info! You got me headed in a good direction. I do have logging and will check the temp of the esc next time out.

In order to get the head speed down I'm thinking of the pinion & main gear change and going to look into brands of freewheeling esc. The 12s battery system helps w/the cg. Plus I have a nice investment in batteries that works for multiple models.

I've got the slant gears now. When I order new gears is there a certain mod I should consider? I'm clueless about the mod pertaining to gears.
My wife asked me what I wanted for Christmas, so I might have an answer for her soon.
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Old 12-09-2017, 07:41 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Don "Keyrigger" did some extensive testing of low head speeds on a 600 EFL PRO in his thread here:

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...y#post22140616

He ended up with 105mm KBDD blades cut to 100mm, and that took care of the 3-blade head at 1550rpm or so. Apparently that low tail gear ratio is not such a big deal for us scale guys.

The pinion is a different issue, because the PRO has that etra bearing block for the motor shaft which does not allow you to adjust the gear mesh. It's designed for a 13t pinion; not sure if 12t is still OK, but I guess 11t is not.
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Old 12-09-2017, 09:18 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getsuyoubi View Post
Don "Keyrigger" did some extensive testing of low head speeds on a 600 EFL PRO in his thread here:

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...y#post22140616

He ended up with 105mm KBDD blades cut to 100mm, and that took care of the 3-blade head at 1550rpm or so. Apparently that low tail gear ratio is not such a big deal for us scale guys.

The pinion is a different issue, because the PRO has that etra bearing block for the motor shaft which does not allow you to adjust the gear mesh. It's designed for a 13t pinion; not sure if 12t is still OK, but I guess 11t is not.
Thanks for your input. It's always nice to get additional useful info. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying the motor isn't adjustable, so a pinion w/a different tooth count would be a different (and in this case smaller) size?
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Old 12-10-2017, 08:26 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Yes, the smaller the pinon, the smaller its diameter. Maybe 12t is still OK, but the non-adjustable motor mount is designed for 13t.
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Old 12-11-2017, 08:18 AM   #15 (permalink)
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KDE Direct sells an adjustable motor mount for this.
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Old 12-11-2017, 11:39 AM   #16 (permalink)
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The website says "sold out", which is probably not a good sign. I tried to buy the adjustable motor mount for my 600CF last year, which was also old out - it turned out that it was in fact discontinued, not just momentarily sold out.
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Old 12-12-2017, 12:32 PM   #17 (permalink)
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That isn't a good sign - though, with a Dremel, and some thought... well pretty much any motor mount can be made "adjustable"... 'ish!

If obtaining correct gear mesh on different ratios is going to be a PITA (and I feel ya' I cannot adjust my gear ratio at all...) then your next best option is to get a different Kv motor that will 'provide' you with the correct rotational speeds at your desired voltage.

If you can stay 12S, do. The efficiency (aka Amp draw) is so much better at higher voltages.
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Old 12-12-2017, 02:21 PM   #18 (permalink)
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To answer a couple of questions, you can pretty much remove the support of the tail pushrod and it will work with little flexing as the CF rod is very stiff. If you move the support to a spot that doesn't interfere with the internals of the fuselage, it will be just fine. You may be up against a hard spot with the KDE mount being removed from the line but there is another way to get close to where you want before buying a new motor. Align came out with the 118t gear and I do believe that they suggested the 11t pinion for use with it in the 600EFL Pro with the stock motor mounts. It could be the 12t as well but this was a trial and error fix as the actual setup demanded a specially made Align motor mount set with a 14t pinion and a beefy motor to increase the power and rpm. When you do the math, you end up with a top speed of 1831 using the 118/11 combination, which is greatly reduced from 2273 stock with the 112/13 combination. Mine is the KDE mount but I will tell you that with the initial 112/10 setup, the Scorpion motor was dangerously close to the servos and I think there is some evidence of rubbing. When I changed to the 118 gear, that went away but it was made simple with the adjustable mount.

I would highly recommend that you play with the gearing to see if you can put the fixed system to work for you or give in and put a 400kv motor in place of the 530 to give you a very usable rpm range. I loved my Pro chassis when it was in the AS350 and there is not one summer that goes by now that I don't regret selling the body. Hope this might help.

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Old 12-12-2017, 03:03 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Another alternative would be a 10s setup instead of 12s, I guess. That may even be easier than finding a 400kV motor that does not have too large a diameter.
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Old 12-23-2017, 01:46 PM   #20 (permalink)
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An update.

The mechanics are being put into a 700 size MD500. Question, are the Align 600 and 700 tail booms the same diameter?
I have another 600 (6s) for the Long ranger.

I bought a YGE 160 HV for the MD500.(price I couldn't pass up) I know it's overkill for this model, but I doubt there'll be a problem w/the operation. Am I on point w/that assumption?

I've been looking for a different gearing solution and smaller kv motor w/no luck. My motor is 510kv. What's the possibility of satisfactorily operating the YGE at a governed % that would get the head speed down to the 1600 rpm or lower range? Keep in mind I'm planning a 5-blade head on this model.
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Last edited by Tman49; 12-23-2017 at 01:57 PM.. Reason: more info
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