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Electric Motors Winding and Repair Electric Motors Winding and Repair Discussion


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Old 12-15-2018, 04:28 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Why change? a wye and delta combo.

Here is what I feel is the correct connection to accommodate wye/delta serial combination. The original DL 12N10P scheme is AabBCcaABbcC. Lets break the 2 layers apart and examine as 2 separate sl motors. Motor 1 scheme is A-b-C-a-B-c-.Then lets let the next motor be -a-B-c-A-b-C. Then we terminate one as delta and one as wye and hook up in series with the inner delta as the wye's bundle.What will be interesting is what Kv and Kw it gives back and what harmonic content will be present. In power transformers such zig zag topology actually reduces losses. Wonder if there's any chance here for similar results. Maybe test will tell. Would it be possible to wind each motor where the resistance will be the same.....
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Old 10-12-2019, 08:02 PM   #2 (permalink)
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The NC STATE D.E.E.C.S. Used a special winding as a migration from the 12N10P machine to a 24 slot 10 pole. It is based on 2 sets of wye to delta windings connected in series. This showed a 1.25% increase in average torque. It reduced torque ripple from 5.3% to 1.25%. It also reduced the THD. from 4.6% to 1.1%. The simultaneous reduction of super and sub harmonics increase the power factor of the machine by 7% and the core loss performance by 15 %.. Pretty significant improvement form the DL conventional winds done here as there power factor is .90 and this is.95 . This technique also applies to SRM's, and IM's.
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Old 10-16-2019, 10:30 PM   #3 (permalink)
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This 24N10P would be a natural migration for 12N10P. For me and my Neumotors 24N22P motors is simply the YY+DD winding. The sub and supers are already lower than 12N10 and it has a higher winding and power factor. The 13 is the dominant runs with the 11th and they are equal so no shift is required. The fundamental is already low with this slot pole combination but the y+delta will remove the fundamental rotor losses. It helps the balance between the two motors if the delta has double the turn the wye. This configuration shows my layout of the two partial SL motors.The wye motor is 1 turn of 10 Ga the delta is 2 turns of 13 ga. for fil > 50%. This all runs with one controller.

Ttys
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Old 10-17-2019, 01:26 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Ein Star ist geboren.



My newest wind YY + DD NEU 4638. The single layer delta motors(inner) are two turns of 13 ga. equivalent stranding in 22 ga. The Wye motors(outer) are 1 turn of 10 Ga. equivalent. In an attempt to balance the mmf you wind double the turns on the delta motor. Should sink some amps!
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Old 11-24-2019, 07:35 PM   #5 (permalink)
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https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...5&postcount=10

A very interesting question indeed. Its something when one has to assume that 166 revolutions a sec is fast ....

Why assume when you just multiply by 60 and know the number is 9,960 rpm

That said I am very curious to see the help that will be offered to this question that certainly has an answer...... already brought forth here.

.
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Old 11-24-2019, 08:51 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Nothing will be learned about how to build a light Halbach machine there.

Md Sariful Islam, Student Member, IEEE, Rajib Mikail, Member, IEEE, and Iqbal Husain, Fellow, IEEE do these things.




Their latest work is in lightweight motor research for aerial uses. Any one can view this online. It is no issue. It was the Halbach machine. With a high speed prop it is reported that the 500 watt motor utilizing aluminum winding does 4.5 kW/kg at 20,000 rpm without sacrificing efficiency. You can search and view the work and full result quit easily.

Please Enjoy
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Old 11-26-2019, 09:38 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Answer; "Heard of distributed windings as apposed to concentrated but never two different terminations in same motor."

What makes it even worse is the OP's thread says 10,000 rpm motor .

What a great service this all is to the op.
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Old 11-27-2019, 12:09 AM   #8 (permalink)
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https://www.semanticscholar.org/pape...64407134dbd337

"In this paper, a combined wye-delta connection is introduced and compared with a conventional wye-connection of a concentrated winding. Because the combined wye-delta connection has a higher fundamental winding factor, the output torque is higher for the same current density when a sinusoidal current is imposed. As the combined wye-delta connection has only a minor influence on the losses in the machine, the efficiency of the machine is also increased. The combined wye-delta connection is illustrated in detail for an axial-flux permanent-magnet synchronous machine with a rated power of 4 kW at a fixed speed of 2500 r/min, using finite element computation and measurements on a prototype machine."

.. this older wye - delta connection information is from 8 years ago.

We need to eliminate quarreling and ignorance by enlightening ourselves through education and acceptance of it.
No dirty forum tricks, censorship, or quid pro quo dictators (sponsors) will stop the truth about humanity or how electric motors work. Support of and belief in parties working along those dark lines only make those parties and their supporters lives and understandings of how things work dysfunctional.
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Old 12-05-2019, 01:35 PM   #9 (permalink)
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"It is shown that the copper loss of the proposed 24S-14P dual-phase AC motor is slightly higher than that of the conventional motor, which is reasonable because more coil turns are used due to the lower winding factor. That being said, the iron loss and magnetic loss are much lower than that of conventional 12S-14P engine, and the overall loss of the former is nearly half of the latter. In particular, the magnetic loss of conventional 12S-14P machine is about 1,148 W, while the magnetic loss of The proposed motor has only 60.8 W, which greatly reduces the thermal load in the rotor part, thereby reducing the risk of demagnetization for the magnets without the use of additional methods This can lead to increased manufacturing costs and / or negative results influences on the EM performance and the mechanical rigidity. The efficiency of the proposed 24S-14P machine is 96.3%, while z is about 93.7% in the conventional 12S-14P machine, which shows that the proposed machine has a much higher efficiency. A novel 24-way 14-pin DL winding layout with stator displacement method proposed for FSCW permanent magnet motors, which gives the complete cancellation of the 1st subharmonic and significant reduction of the 5th subharmonic. unlike conventional stator switching concept which normally requires overlapping coils, this novel winding arrangement may still require a more concentrated winding set that avoids physical coil contact and may result in less mutual inductance, making it preferable for fault tolerant drive applications. Both the proposed 24S-14P two-phase engine and the conventional 12S-14P engine have been developed for traction application. The proposed study shows that the proposed 24S-14P dual-phase AC motor not only has much lower harmonious content and much lower iron loss but also has improved torque capability and efficiency. Therefore, it is confirmed that the proposed 24S-14P dual three-phase system is a promising solution to the challenges of significant room harmonics for FSCW motor."

Zhu, Shaohong & Cox, Tom & Xu, Zeyuan & Gerada, Chris. (2019). Novel 24-slots14-poles fractional-slot concentrated winding topology with low-space harmonics for electrical machine. The Journal of Engineering. 10.1049/joe.2018.8085.

Maybe the more progressive 14 pole (pyro) winders will gravitate to mars because it appears the corners of the earth have has been left behind with false realities of an antiquated 12N10P machine.
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Old 12-11-2019, 09:41 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Default 12N10P evolved 3 layer wind.

I know I know I know, Cant Sleep? It's easy. This cooler running 3 layer wind could be for the extreme simplified into 3 SL machines serially connected in variants of Y-Y-D or Y-Y-Y

Now get some sleep!
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Old 12-18-2019, 02:00 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Progressive windings for 12N10P machines

It is truly not a difficult thing to wind the individual coils and finalize any terminations presented by the engineers.They can be applied to work the very same way with many different machines. The size and power of the machine does not matter. generally speaking more stator volume is capable of more power. To wind a shifted variant on a 12N10P is no problem. We see a progression to this from the primitive dl wind brings real benefit. We of course record parameters for the case some group may want to compare it to their conventional DL motors later.


1. Wind the SL Delta motor which will have more turns. We know for a 12N10P machine the working ξ is 0.96593 for single layer machines. Generally we want a ratio around (1.73) between the two motors. The wye-delta serial connection attenuates the fundamental harmonic and the shift 5 slots between the two motors boost the 5th and attenuates the 7th and other detrimental slot harmonics.This positive effect is already well established and shows improvement with more torque,and higher efficiency of the machine by reducing ripple, eddy current loses in the rotor and the total harmonic distortion of the machine. Here is the first single layer to be terminated DD on the 12N10P Scorpion HKIII 5020
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Old 12-23-2019, 10:59 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default YY to DD HKIII 5020 Scorpion

..............................................
.................................................. ..................................................
Alas! a rework of the original 5020 10N10P HKIII scorpion Sl motor. U c the 2 delta motors terminated.They become the wye bundles. When the wye motors UVW terminals are run in parallel the Y-D motors become parallel for YY-DD. The 3 ends of each wye motor terminate to the UVW terminal of each delta motor. A simple termination and eazy progression from it's DL ancestor....
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Old 12-24-2019, 11:50 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Old 12-24-2019, 11:53 AM   #14 (permalink)
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The Wye motors are in. Even without the perfect orthocylic lay there is good fill with the single coil wind system.
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Old 12-25-2019, 05:45 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Progressive wind for 12N10P machines


The HKIII 5020 YY-DD terminated with the phase shifted Y-D SL machines. Which equals 2xs 17 awg.for UVW Wasn't that easy?
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Old 12-25-2019, 07:26 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Old 01-07-2020, 02:41 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Sorry for the mistake in calling this an HKIII it is an HK 5020. Someone didn't like the 'spaghetti' of the first wind so I now have it where each phase coil is paralleled straight to the inverter U V W terminals.This leaves the door open for other terminations including open ends facilitating cascaded bridges and semi six phase operation.
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Old 01-10-2020, 03:51 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Why look at an efficiency calculators to to analyze a power signal if we want to know things like power factor.?To know this you will need good current sense in 2020. Don't be silly or dependent on dependent on assumptions or words.Test it for yourself. Raytheon should know power factor can be calculated as long as you know the phase shift between the current and voltage so we need to look at this on a scope safely. Any modern scope has cursors that will accurately tell you the phase shift. From there the math is easy for you I hope So for Raytheon's finest cyber eyes I built 2 non intrusive Rogowski coils and two ac/dc toroidal current sensors. The air core Rogowski coils can handle larger currents while the toriods are for smaller ac and dc currents.

The terminations are outside the empty hood that surely airy and cool. With the open end coils all things are schemes possible from the termination side at the inverter.



The current prime mover is 12N4P water cooled inrunner and can easily run the MUT in the extended rpm ranges >35Krpm. It should also be able to brake the motor to at least 50% of the loaded rpm. FULL POWER.if not a have bigger brakes that will.
Enjoy the free world research lives in.
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Old 01-11-2020, 11:11 PM   #19 (permalink)
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...
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Old 01-12-2020, 08:15 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Thanks Kavic,
It actually runs too...... The way it is wired with open ended coils is simple to test the partial single layer motors before the final termination. Im trying to figure a way to terminate it that allows you to run wye or delta independent or serially together . Id like a clean way to do this. Plug in endbell PCB's possibly. The winding information,motor and its Hubertus inspired wind is banned on rc-networs and rc line. If they want to question or deny what is taught by the Chair of electrical motors and actuators at the University of Bundeswehr Munich or say its all theory its fine, but not at all true. The calculated numbers actually fall short of the actual improvement seen with the prototype on the bench. You hear the motors they test are so much larger and more powerful so theory doesn't apply. That is also not the case many motors tested at the academic level actually run alot slower and at less peak demands than a modeler places on a motor. Industry is concerned about extended running and efficiency where most modelers want power on demand. Id think the winds actually benefit us more since harmonics are amplified by rpms and eddy current losses are greater at high frequencies. Very few motors they test operate in the kilo range fundamentally.


........Banning this one wont change that.



Here a chart that shows how this theory matched up to real world testing so I wont be stuck in o3 with my wraps. There is also a post floating around that disputes that these losses could account for as much as 10% or total power where they say 2% Look at the loss chart in the attachment. Does it agree? Intuitive thinking should know a cool magnet and iron does a much better job and heat in the iron and rotor is the friend of no one.


The current clamp I made works fairly well as you can see it and the beautiful BEMF voltage of the sl wye. The passive ac clamp needs an output filter but I did not have a 9m resistor to compliment the 10 pf cap in my stash . Nevertheless you observe the phase shift and can make REAL determinations about power factor from there but of course we will look at this under load as well so we can stay in a loop of honesty. From the charts you can determine how far this theory supported by the entire IEEE is off compared to the real world.

Thanks for you support and interest.
Hubert
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