Fun, Learning, Friendship and Mutual Respect START  HERE


Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Electronics Support > Electric Motors, Gearing, Speed Controls, Gyros, Receivers, and Other Electronics Discussion > Electric Motors Winding and Repair


Electric Motors Winding and Repair Electric Motors Winding and Repair Discussion


Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-24-2019, 08:27 PM   #1 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,371
 

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Research Triangle Park
Default ADP F3 40 amp + Emax rs2205

Hi,
APD has sent me a F3 40 amp drive to try with the special wound 12N14P Emaxx rs2205. The drive should be here Friday according to DHL.


The gear will go into RCG Mike Rx's < 250 gram Shark for review very soon.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	40.jpg
Views:	136
Size:	41.3 KB
ID:	789315   Click image for larger version

Name:	20181218_225021.jpg
Views:	281
Size:	59.5 KB
ID:	789317   Click image for larger version

Name:	shark.jpg
Views:	135
Size:	143.5 KB
ID:	789321  
1BOHO is offline        Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 04-26-2019, 04:29 PM   #2 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,371
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Research Triangle Park
Default

As promised. The .3 gram 6s 40 ampere drive. Enjoy

Vg
TSA
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20190426_161145.jpg
Views:	598
Size:	41.1 KB
ID:	789585  
1BOHO is offline        Quick reply to this message
Old 06-06-2019, 08:48 AM   #3 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,371
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Research Triangle Park
Default

Hi
1BOHO is offline        Quick reply to this message
Old 06-14-2019, 11:26 AM   #4 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 5,044
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chrisitansburg VA USA
Default

Tony messaged me a while back saying he had a firmware update for me but I haven't heard squat since... Maybe he's busy? Maybe the internet is eating my e-mails?
__________________
Jeti DS14us -- TT e700 -- 6s Logo600se UL -- Logo600-3d -- Logo500 UL -- Charge Case
prototype3a is offline        Quick reply to this message
Old 07-02-2019, 05:27 PM   #5 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,371
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Research Triangle Park
Default

I will make a contact for you no issues.
1BOHO is offline        Quick reply to this message
Old 08-20-2019, 12:41 AM   #6 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,371
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Research Triangle Park
Default

Here

https://github.com/AdvancedPowerDriv...0F3x%20PWM.zip

Normal PWM FW

Multicopter FW

Fast pwm for F5B performance FW

Last edited by 1BOHO; 08-20-2019 at 02:50 AM..
1BOHO is offline        Quick reply to this message
Old 09-08-2019, 01:06 PM   #7 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,371
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Research Triangle Park
Default

Hi
If the new APD firmware will support bidirectional dshot the motor heads will be stoked with the new FW for betaflight 4.1 FC. It teams with these drives or blheli32 drives for something worthy to improve power system efficiency.

"RPM based filtering gives better motor noise than ever before. Motors will be cooler, bent prop tolerance is much better, and full throttle sounds cleaner and often is faster.

If the dynamic notch filter is kept active, it can be narrower, reducing delay; also it gets freed up to eliminate frame resonances.

On clean quads, lowpass filter delay can usually be improved by moving cutoff frequencies higher or disabling some gyro filtering. This should be done carefully, after reading the tuning guide."


https://github.com/betaflight/betafl...and-RPM-Filter
1BOHO is offline        Quick reply to this message
Old 09-10-2019, 11:37 AM   #8 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,371
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Research Triangle Park
Default

https://oscarliang.com/filter-betaflight/
__________________
"Diese Flugzeuge werden von Clowns entworfen, die von Affen beaufsichtigt warden....."
1BOHO is offline        Quick reply to this message
Old 11-06-2019, 09:47 AM   #9 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,371
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Research Triangle Park
Default Base reference thrust and weight for RS2205s "Red Bottom"

The rs2205s"red bottom" is 2300 kv 28.8 grams and produces 2.8 pound of thrust @ > 500 watts with a 3 blade DAL5045. The speed control and motor combined is under 32 grams.


The minuscule drive can sink > 3 kW.

Good luck over there....
__________________
"Diese Flugzeuge werden von Clowns entworfen, die von Affen beaufsichtigt warden....."

Last edited by 1BOHO; 11-06-2019 at 09:58 AM..
1BOHO is offline        Quick reply to this message
Old 11-12-2019, 02:56 AM   #10 (permalink)
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Mar 2016
Default

Hi,
yes the EMAX motors are powerfull , i use them to push a test rigg for a speedboat design with counter rotating set up. Very good for short burst trust boost.

Happy Amps Christian
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	1E950E9C-5871-466F-B3C9-1180C1EF43C5.jpeg
Views:	25
Size:	102.6 KB
ID:	825593   Click image for larger version

Name:	2598F456-DC8C-4085-A1CC-E88CD18F2284.jpeg
Views:	23
Size:	102.0 KB
ID:	825595  
CHX2 is offline        Quick reply to this message
Old 11-12-2019, 08:27 AM   #11 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,371
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Research Triangle Park
Default

Yez I wonder would a rewind actually hurt. Would the extra copper justify the extra weight? You can see now that u have a set the windings arent represented accurately in their advertisement where they show an orthocyclic wind. It just isnt the case. Maybe an orthogonal lay with the same wire will be the answer to improvement within the same weight. Hopefully the orthocyclic lay promotes a better Q. The one thing it could benefit from is the Y-D. U could also impliment the shift approached at two 6 slot sl machines.
__________________
"Diese Flugzeuge werden von Clowns entworfen, die von Affen beaufsichtigt warden....."
1BOHO is offline        Quick reply to this message
Old 11-12-2019, 09:11 AM   #12 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 5,044
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chrisitansburg VA USA
Default

I've been curious if ANY of the miniquad motors are actually good. I'm fairly certain no one in that hobby has any idea.

FWIW, EMAX's other motors are absolutely nothing to get excited about by their own published specifications.
__________________
Jeti DS14us -- TT e700 -- 6s Logo600se UL -- Logo600-3d -- Logo500 UL -- Charge Case
prototype3a is offline        Quick reply to this message
Old 11-12-2019, 09:19 AM   #13 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,371
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Research Triangle Park
Default

Click image for larger version

Name:	20191112_101457.jpg
Views:	39
Size:	55.8 KB
ID:	825605
Morning,
These actually give back the numbers reported in many different places so you see we use them and get back good numbers as well. We think these in particular are better than many so called plane drives. Since the company that manufactures them does about 90% of whats available to a consumer you're buying them anyway. The only way out of this cycle is custom or high end motoren. We are both hobbyist for 40 plus years and the only negative I speak to is the fact the wire is not actually laid as advertised. There was no issue with the machines performance with respect to OEM reporting and the 14 shaped pole pieces was no lie. The motor has a smaller air gap and N52SH 150C operational temperature double sided magnets. They claim a 10% increase of magnetic intensity. The thrust is there so who will test this 10% to say yea or nay....

http://www.magmamagnets.com/permanen...s/n52-magnets/

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...tion_PM_motors

For clarity the motor is a RS2205s red bottom.

Last edited by 1BOHO; 11-12-2019 at 10:41 AM..
1BOHO is offline        Quick reply to this message
Old 11-12-2019, 11:02 AM   #14 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,371
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Research Triangle Park
Default Magnet shaping to reduce cogging torque for radial magnetization PM motors

Click image for larger version

Name:	_2_10.jpg
Views:	43
Size:	95.5 KB
ID:	825643
These attachments may help to explain their track. It also shows you the Emax orthocyclic winding advertised suggestion

Click image for larger version

Name:	pole shaping.png
Views:	38
Size:	56.8 KB
ID:	825645Click image for larger version

Name:	flux density of two types of shaped pole pieces.jpg
Views:	39
Size:	101.5 KB
ID:	825647Click image for larger version

Name:	Aplitude of cogging torque as a function of pole embrace and pole arc offset.jpg
Views:	33
Size:	70.1 KB
ID:	825649


Hobby should make a choice on if it want quasi sinus (better efficiency) or true bldc which has been found at Ohio State to produce more torque and a true trapazoidal low ripple Bemf with spoke style, interior, or magnets at a single barrier rotor and stepping vector control. Exterior and magnets flushed to the rotor exterior do not provide a true trapezoidal bemf its quasi sinus and quasi trap its kinda both but neither truly.

Im sure the drives would like them to make their mind up.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	pole shape citation.png
Views:	26
Size:	10.7 KB
ID:	825651  

Last edited by 1BOHO; 11-13-2019 at 07:03 PM..
1BOHO is offline        Quick reply to this message
Old 11-12-2019, 01:12 PM   #15 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 5,044
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chrisitansburg VA USA
Default

I will always say that thrust testing is for the most part, a waste of time unless you're comparing props.

Also, I haven't seen a single miniquad tester normalize their data for density altitude which means all their data can not be compared and is useless.
__________________
Jeti DS14us -- TT e700 -- 6s Logo600se UL -- Logo600-3d -- Logo500 UL -- Charge Case
prototype3a is offline        Quick reply to this message
Old 11-12-2019, 01:27 PM   #16 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,371
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Research Triangle Park
Default

I have to disagree with that. We test at ground level ..... motors! You can predict mathematically what happens up there but since that will never be duplicated by anyone the result only holds valid for that experience. But if you compare two motors at the same Kv on the same prop at the same level the results are quite valuable and can be truncated at whatever altitude you're concerned with. The drone market is no different than any other they all generally test motors at their ground level. If i involved this as a metric should id have to consider if San Diego bench is at the same elevation as Hoenbrunn's? C'mon now... that's a bit technically nit picked. No hobbyist is that concerned as half dont even load the "useless" thrust stand.Or do any of this shown. Really makes not alot of sense to me as no matter who made the motor they would all be subject to the various elemental physics ex. altitude. The brand name or application wouldn't change much in this regard. Im, more than happy to send you the motors and you test them your way if you feel we need to deceive. JESUS! the altitude control is all my motor test are done at the same altitude 404' above ground level. Christians take place at approximately 1700' above the ocean. If you pic deeper the drive will change everything as well. Our test are as good or better as any of them. We are not Emax.

Your address Prototype? Certainly "we" are honest.

As you can see just about all Christian Lucas and I do is useless. :YeaBaby There has been a million forum motor thrust reports off truly inadequate kitchen lab benches and not once were they ever subject to conversations about their validity based on altitude but now Nov. 11th 2019 we have to answer for this? Man that sucks. Is trying what is suggested, from the best test rigs and testing methodologies in the world, to confirm if it works ever a choice? Real testing of the thrust at every altitude change isn't feasible and you wont get it for a motor that cost 17 dollars anyway if it were.

In the past Ive seen information coming from Hubertus Von Gruenburg award winners (Phd's) I share challenged by resistant hobby plane pilots. The Hubertus award is a research award from ABB that grants the recipient $300,000.00 dollars for test stands and such
. To me its been their MOTOR information that's forever challenge able and definitely unverified using the poorest environment for a controlled test no one can duplicate....Their model. So sure in fact that they fail to ever read or fully examine any test or results from anything but that.
__________________
"Diese Flugzeuge werden von Clowns entworfen, die von Affen beaufsichtigt warden....."

Last edited by 1BOHO; 11-12-2019 at 02:59 PM..
1BOHO is offline        Quick reply to this message
Old 11-12-2019, 02:56 PM   #17 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 5,044
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chrisitansburg VA USA
Default

Whether you like it or not density altitude changes a lot at a fixed physical altitude and can explain a lot of things.

During the summer, here, we average ~4000ft density altitude but I would bet that it is much closer to the physical altitude of ~2000ft today since it is quite cold out.

1000ft change in density altitude is roughly 3% change in thrust.

Density altitude is important to me because I have flown aircraft at ~1000ft and at ~9000ft. At ~9000ft you're using a ton of power to do almost nothing because the air is so thin. At the extreme, I've heard of people foolishly taking drones to the base of K2 which is ~17000ft and they were confused when the aircraft couldn't take off at full throttle.
__________________
Jeti DS14us -- TT e700 -- 6s Logo600se UL -- Logo600-3d -- Logo500 UL -- Charge Case
prototype3a is offline        Quick reply to this message
Old 11-12-2019, 03:06 PM   #18 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,371
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Research Triangle Park
Default

So I guess we should bring a vacuum chamber in next? Of course temperature changes density but All brands would be subject to physical phenomena not just emax so I still don't get the point here at this specific topic today. We certainly know about physics and controlled testing. We don't test one motor in the summer and the comparative other in the dead of winter. You know we test motors at approximately the same time but If you really feel the need to record the barometric pressure, air density, temperature , and at every altitude from minute to minute to suit your needs send an address Ill send you the motor and u do so. You will be quite buzy. The temperature and pressure changes continually during they day good luck keeping up with all that. Its a unique idea in my thread because we have still yet to see any forum reports or any request of it from anyone else to accounts for all these things.

In emax's corner is the fact they have sold 300,000 more units than the next closest thing so them making amendments wasn't a matter of necessity more than it was simply an improvement on something that was good enuf for hobby pilots already. Anyone ever examining the prototypical cost of pole shaping or motor building would be pretty impressed that they bring D.E.E.D.U. principles and an optimized gap at $17.00 dollars per unit. According to Arnold the breadth of application of shaped field magnets has shown as much as a 60% increase of torque within a fixed envelop. I think Christian and Andreas are working on these slices of pie. We will see. Its a pretty significant amendment even though it appears pilot's first charge on everything new is snake oil..... The process of manufacturing shaped field magnets correctly for maximum effect cost plenty money for sure.This thread isn't about data or physical variations at altitude. It is about the motor which we have found lived up to the OEM reported numbers. I guess we tested at the right time, right day, and altitude. What happened to those pilots not being able to take off has little to do with the emax rs2205s reported numbers but instead them and their lack of understanding of the physics involved. We certainly do not have these limitations. And any motor of the same $17.00 class would be subject to the same thing that happened up there. Makes really no difference here in this report. Maybe Christian has more answers specifically about that topic with his results. Hes the aviation instrumentation expert. Im sure he knows more on that, but I'm moving on with the thread topic. To go on explaining control in an experiment for me is truly useless as the Neu power ecal as well as many others will account for changes in pressure etc.https://ecalc.ch/motorcalc.php?neumotors

It's still silly in my mind to worry about it because even with this option a "controlled" comparison would still have you set these things and leave them the same for the comparative motor. Testing them in a kitchen lab one right after the other by mere minutes is basically just as good. Why wouldn't it be? At a glance this seems like an extremely eccentric request expected just of emax, multi copter motor companies, or us.You have free calculators that will do this for a pilot, but how does that change anything found here or on their bench? U can simply record the relevant motor constants, create your target physical world in the calculator and enjoy the answers they report.

Maybe it isn't clear but OEM reports come from a bench not a plane at 1000-9000 feet. No motor company in hobby provides such a report but you can answer your needs in a cal with any motor. The rs2205s is no different in that regard.
__________________
"Diese Flugzeuge werden von Clowns entworfen, die von Affen beaufsichtigt warden....."

Last edited by 1BOHO; 11-13-2019 at 11:38 PM..
1BOHO is offline        Quick reply to this message
Old 11-12-2019, 07:34 PM   #19 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 5,044
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chrisitansburg VA USA
Default

Forget I ever messaged you about anything.
__________________
Jeti DS14us -- TT e700 -- 6s Logo600se UL -- Logo600-3d -- Logo500 UL -- Charge Case
prototype3a is offline        Quick reply to this message
Old 11-13-2019, 08:48 AM   #20 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,371
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Research Triangle Park
Default

NEW MOTOR EMAX RS2205S-2300KV STATIC THRUST TESTS - 2206 CLASS POWER!! (3 min 2 sec)

A video showing what is actually under the hood. You can see the difference in pm shape. This style of thrust testing is typical in a kitchen lab and is good enuf for most hobbyist to make comparisons from. If it is consistently inaccurate it would have to be for all motors tested on it so for a comparison tool it still passes our test.

@CHX2
Hast du ein Bruderhobby 25xx zum Vergleich? Sehen Sie nur eine Ansicht, die interessiert, wie die Polformung die Dinge verändert? Beeindruckend. Es wäre wirklich interessant zu sehen, wie sich der 24-polige 25XX neu verhalten würde. Es könnte mehr wiegen, aber es sollte mehr Drehmomentpotential und möglicherweise einen etwas besseren Wirkungsgrad haben. Ich habe noch keinen in der Hand. Wie vergleicht sich ein kleiner verzahnter Lehner?
__________________
"Diese Flugzeuge werden von Clowns entworfen, die von Affen beaufsichtigt warden....."

Last edited by 1BOHO; 11-13-2019 at 09:24 AM..
1BOHO is offline        Quick reply to this message
Closed Thread




Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the HeliFreak forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your REAL and WORKING email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself. Use a real email address or you will not be granted access to the site. Thank you.
Email Address:
Location
Where do you live? ie: Country, State, City or General Geographic Location please.
Name and Lastname
Enter name and last name here. (This information is not shown to the general public. Optional)
Helicopter #1
Enter Helicopter #1 type and equipment.
Helicopter #2
Enter Helicopter #2 type and equipment.
Helicopter #3
Enter Helicopter #3 type and equipment.
Helicopter #4
Enter Helicopter #4 type and equipment.

Log-in


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




Copyright © Website Acquisitions Inc. All rights reserved.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1