Fun, Learning, Friendship and Mutual Respect START  HERE


Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Batteries and Charging Support > LiIon, LiPo, NiCd & NiMh General


LiIon, LiPo, NiCd & NiMh General General Battery Support


Like Tree3Likes
  • 1 Post By Beserkr
  • 1 Post By Xrayted
  • 1 Post By Beserkr
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-02-2019, 09:59 AM   #1 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 134
 

Join Date: May 2019
Location: Stockport, Disunited Kingdom
Default Question on Internal Resistance

I've recently gotten in to the hobby with an old Blade 400 which I've upgraded a bit on the cheap and is now perfectly setup and handling beautifully after ~20 flights.

I replaced the old (dead and puffed) batteries which came with it with three 3S 30c 2200mah Turnigy blues.
Seem to be great batteries to me, and worked perfectly being charged with the crappy basic charger that came with the B400.

I've just bought a SkyRC D100 V2 balance charger. First proper charger I've owned and seems incredible to me being new to them. One of the first things I did with it was to check the balance and IR of the three Turnigy LiPos - all balanced nicely and with IRs of 3milli-ohms per cell across the board. Seems excellent and consistent to me.

Now I also bought a single Overlander 3S 35c 2200mah LiPo with the charger (easier to source and same price compared to the Turnigys).
Also tested the balanced and IR before use. Perfect balance at 3.8v per cell, but the IRs were 9 milli-ohms per cell. Triple the reading of the Turnigy batts. I used exactly the same ports and cabling (i.e. method) to test all batteries.
Note that the Overlander LiPo took another 5 minutes or so to reach full charge compared to the Turnigys (all starting from 3.8v storage charge) as you would expect from increased IR.

I spoke to Overlander and received the following response from them;



What you would need to look for in terms of whether or not your battery is faulty is the voltages more than anything. all the voltages of the cells should be the same (or very close) they should all charge and discharge at the same speed.

When the batteries are made up each individual cell is matched via voltage, weight and internal resistance, once the pack is made up – welded, tagged, the wires are soldered on etc... the internal resistance reading changes due to all the extra things. if all of these things were removed the IR would be different.

You would need to more look at whether the IR is the same (or close) on each of the cells, one shouldn’t read massively higher or lower than the others, if they are all reading the same and all the voltages are good and matched then you are good to go.




Are they trying to deflect me away from what could be poor quality/QA, or is their response reasonable?
Is the measured IR a concern for a new 3S 2200mah LiPo?

I've also read that most, if not all computerised chargers aren't necessarily accurate in measuring IR, but also that this would be made apparent by the first cell's IR being shown to be quite a bit higher than the rest.

Bottom line - can I rely on the readings given by my charger, should I be concerned about the IR numbers found in testing, and would you say the Overlander LiPo is poor quality based on the readings my charger has given me?
xoexoe likes this.
Beserkr is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 08-02-2019, 10:43 AM   #2 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 10,574
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Atlanta, GA
Default

Yes, you are correct that IR measured with any charger setup may not be highly accurate, or that different charger setups may yield different results on the same packs.

With that being said, one thing they are good for is establishing a baseline value whether perfectly accurate or not, as you will still be able to see any changes over time or cell outliers.

IR is highly dependent on temp at the time of measurement. Always measure in the exact same environment as a pack that was just flown, charged then discharged or handled for extended periods of time will read lower than one that has just been sitting around doing nothing.

Also, IR is inversely proportional to capacity and lot of guys dont realize this. This means that if you measured a particular 5000mAh pack and got a reading of 5 milliohms, a 2500 mAh pack from the same maker using the exact same cells would be doubled to 10 milliohms and so on, so its completely normal for the IR to be much higher the smaller the battery

The value of 3 milliohms you got on the original batteries is extremely low for a 2200 mAh pack. Those values are more in line with 5000 mAh capacity packs or a pack that is warm so the value of 9 on the others is not a deal breaker just yet.

Its impossible to compare completely different battery brands as you are doing because the cells used in each are completely different, however time will tell and you should notice a difference in performance between the two if there is really an issue.

The higher IR packs will have less "pop" and the voltage will sag sooner if they are truly crap cells. They will come down hotter which only causes the IR to climb higher over time, so just keep a watch on them and see what happens.

Keep in mind there is no such thing as any pack with a "real" C rating over about 50C or so no matter what fake claim is on the wrapper. True 30-50C packs should have the lowest IR values and these real C rating packs aren't necessarily the big name brands or more expensive batts that many expect. Most that claim 50-75C are really 20C packs when officially tested. Your new pack are really 17C packs assuming that 9 milliohm value is correct meaning they are no good for more than about 40A continuous or risk overheating and damage.

Here is a really nice "True C" chart that was recently compiled by a few of the guys over on RCG that have done extensive lab testing on many different packs and brands over the last few years, and they are constantly updating the data as new testing and new pack formulas are released. Its also great because it shows the "watts per gram" which is great for guys who dont really need a super high C rating because they dont pull tons of amps.

This way they can decide on the best pack for them based on the amount stored power vs. the pack weight instead of higher C ratings they won't make use of which increase weight and pack cost. The same or more power density in a lighter pack means even longer flights even if the capacity rating is exactly the same as the pack you use now.

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=7579

Entire thread:https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...st-Comparisons
__________________
Tony
Synergy 516, Gaui R-5 Speed, Cypher Vtol Jet, Mini racing quad, Spirit FBL, Hobbywing and Scorpion Tribunus ESC, Xnova motors. The girl in my DX9 tells them all what to do

Last edited by Xrayted; 08-02-2019 at 11:17 AM..
Xrayted is online now        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-22-2019, 04:14 AM   #3 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 134
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2019
Location: Stockport, Disunited Kingdom
Default

Thank you Xrayted - I'm very grateful for the quick and very thorough reply. Sorry it's taken me so long to respond - I've been getting on with other things since the weather here has been un-flyable for weeks now.

As with seemingly everything in this hobby nothing is simple, and the further you delve in to a particular subject, the further in you get drawn. I often tell people on the outside of the hobby that it's a bit of a knowledge rabbit-hole. Exactly why I love it so much, as I tend to get bored of simple things pretty quickly....

In your answer it appears that you calculated the 'true C' rating of my packs (assuming the IR value my charger measured is accurate) to be ~17C. What calculation did you use for this?
I just bought a second hand B450 esc (EFLA335H) which is 35A. Sounds like even with a 'true' 17C pack, that this setup should still work well and give me a bit more punch over the stock 25A esc (assuming the motor would want to draw the extra current the new esc can provide)...?
Beserkr is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-22-2019, 04:36 AM   #4 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 8,004
 

Join Date: Jun 2016
Default

You may experience less bogging but the motor will not run any faster on a bigger ESC. These two formulas known as Ohms Law (and combinations there of) will give you an idea of things:

P= I x E
E= I x R

P - Power in Watts
I - Current in Amps
E - Volts
R - Resistance in Ohms

Keep in mind that ESC's can exceed their rating for short bursts
__________________
__________________
Team USED
Shape S8,G700,G500,Shuttle 550,Trex 500 E/EFL Pro,Oxy 3(2),B400(5),450X,360CFX,Fusion 270(2),230S (V1/V2),200S,120S,Nano (CPS/S2),K110/120/130
BrokeDad is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-22-2019, 04:45 AM   #5 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 134
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2019
Location: Stockport, Disunited Kingdom
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokeDad View Post
You may experience less bogging but the motor will not run any faster on a bigger ESC. These two formulas known as Ohms Law (and combinations there of) will give you an idea of things:

P= I x E
E= I x R

P - Power in Watts
I - Current in Amps
E - Volts
R - Resistance in Ohms

Keep in mind that ESC's can exceed their rating for short bursts
Cheers BD! I studied physics at high school when I was 16-17 and do remember those equations, though I seemed to remember things getting a bit more tricky when talking about power supply IR and couldn't remember if these would apply in that context, or whether more specific equations were needed.

(How is your hand by the way?)

I should have been clearer - I was indeed referring to bogging when I said 'punch'. Which is what I'm after!

I've trawled through a lot of the old posts in the B400 forum (going back to 2009 - still not read them all yet!) and the consensus seemed to be that the stock 420 motor is actually pretty strong if properly matched to the right esc and battery.

Weather is hopefully going to be good for flight this weekend, and looking forward to trying out the new esc with some strong pitch pumps. Then I have an 11t pinion to try in the near future, but that's in another thread...
Beserkr is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-22-2019, 06:52 AM   #6 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 10,574
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Atlanta, GA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beserkr View Post
Thank you Xrayted - I'm very grateful for the quick and very thorough reply. Sorry it's taken me so long to respond - I've been getting on with other things since the weather here has been un-flyable for weeks now.

As with seemingly everything in this hobby nothing is simple, and the further you delve in to a particular subject, the further in you get drawn. I often tell people on the outside of the hobby that it's a bit of a knowledge rabbit-hole. Exactly why I love it so much, as I tend to get bored of simple things pretty quickly....

In your answer it appears that you calculated the 'true C' rating of my packs (assuming the IR value my charger measured is accurate) to be ~17C. What calculation did you use for this?
I just bought a second hand B450 esc (EFLA335H) which is 35A. Sounds like even with a 'true' 17C pack, that this setup should still work well and give me a bit more punch over the stock 25A esc (assuming the motor would want to draw the extra current the new esc can provide)...?
The true C rating tool is here: Lipoly Objective Performance Calculation Tool REV5.xlsx

You will notice no increased power benefit from the 35A rated ESC vs the 25 you had as that is not how power works. The ESC does not "force" or allow more power into your motor just because the rating is higher.

The motor will draw only what it needs based on how you are flying and will still draw the exact same amount whether you have a 25A ESC mounted on the model or a 250A ESC.

The ESC rating is merely how much current it can withstand continuously without burning up, and as has been stated can tolerate much higher values for short periods of time. I routinely spike 150A through my 80A Hobbywing ESC multiple times during every flight, but the overall continuous value averages out to much lower and well within the ESC rating

Your motor can pull 200A through a 25A ESC if it needed to, that is at least until it burns up from the overload so the only reason to go bigger is if your flying style or setup is pulling more amps continuously than the ESC is rated for and shutting it down.

You can however notice more "pop" from one battery to another as higher IR/lower C packs are not able to sustain voltage under load and will sag when the motor tries to pull what it needs under a sudden load change. This actually causes the amps to go higher as lower voltage means higher amps for the same amount of work.

A better battery with lower IR that can sustain voltage much better so the current draw is lower and you can definitely feel this lack of bog that you will get with low C packs under the same situation. This means that although your 17C pack can technically still provide a continuous current values that is near or slightly more than your ESC is rated for, it may still perform poorly when doing things like a pitch pump or any other maneuver that really loads up the head vs a better quality pack with a true higher C rating (ignore the actual label).

On the other hand, you may not notice this at all if your flying style is very tame with mostly smooth forward flight and nothing that really pushes the system
__________________
Tony
Synergy 516, Gaui R-5 Speed, Cypher Vtol Jet, Mini racing quad, Spirit FBL, Hobbywing and Scorpion Tribunus ESC, Xnova motors. The girl in my DX9 tells them all what to do

Last edited by Xrayted; 08-22-2019 at 07:18 AM..
Xrayted is online now        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-22-2019, 07:42 AM   #7 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 134
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2019
Location: Stockport, Disunited Kingdom
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xrayted View Post
You will notice no increased power benefit from the 35A rated ESC vs the 25 you had as that is not how power works. The ESC does not "force" or allow more power into your motor just because the rating is higher.
I see!

I think I have a much clearer understanding now - a (very) simplistic analogy being a pipe used to transfer water, with a pump (motor) at the outflow end 'sucking' water through the pipe (ESC).

The pipe is fragile, and above a certain pressure/flow rate threshold will rupture. Replacing the pipe with something slightly more robust won't force more water to flow, merely allow the pump to pull more water through it, but only if the pump 'asks' for an increased flow.

I suppose within this now very tenuous analogy, the C-rating of the battery would be akin to the amount of water allowed to enter the pipe on the in-flow end. Higher C equals more water allowed to enter the pipe, thus better able to satisfy the pump's demand for water.

If I've just spouted (no pun intended) a load of rubbish please feel free to give me a slap

To further explore your reasoning in the context of changing the motor pinion from a 10-tooth to an 11-tooth, I guess the real benefit of the 35A ESC would be that it would be better able to handle what could well be an increased current draw from the motor, which is now likely working harder to provide a higher head speed.

All assuming the LiPo's C-rating is sufficient to provide sufficient current of course.
__________________
Blade 400 3D "2019 Edition" - Stock 420H Motor, EFLA335H 35A ESC, Quark Spartan, Savox 0257MG servos all-round, Trex 500 skids, DX6i.

My YouTube channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjxIBBszfXNcHtNCM7dbELg
Beserkr is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-22-2019, 07:48 AM   #8 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 10,574
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Atlanta, GA
Default

You have it perfect! One battery and power analogy that many use that is very similar to yours is thinking of the capacity of a given battery to be the size of the gas tank on your car. The actual C rating of the battery is the size of the fuel line and will control how much gas can be provided if needed

A bigger, higher performance motor will require more fuel, however putting the bigger fuel line/pump on the same motor isnt really going to change much because the demand didn't change

This is why I like the battery chart the guys over at RCG created because it allows you to choose good packs based on your needs. Not everyone needs a proper high C rated pack because their flying style won't make use of that extra "fuel" and the higher C rated packs come with a cost and weight penalty which can further reduces flight time.

My Gaui Speed model for instance needs to be able to provide 160-200A for several seconds at a time in speed runs and speed models actually benefit from more weight as it helps with gaining speed in the dive, so the heavier true 50C graphene packs are perfect for that model, and it also has a 200A ESC to cope

However, my Synergy 516 which I sport fly will only be hurt by a heavy pack and a lighter true 25-30C pack is more than adequate for my flying style there. I have the 80A ESC on that model despite routinely spiking the amps on it higher than that in flight, but the Hobbywing is more than capable of dealing with that in short burst. Anything less than true 20C packs and I will notice the difference in performance as my governor will not be able to maintain the set RPM very well under sudden load changes because the pack voltage just cant keep up
__________________
Tony
Synergy 516, Gaui R-5 Speed, Cypher Vtol Jet, Mini racing quad, Spirit FBL, Hobbywing and Scorpion Tribunus ESC, Xnova motors. The girl in my DX9 tells them all what to do

Last edited by Xrayted; 08-22-2019 at 07:59 AM..
Xrayted is online now        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-22-2019, 07:53 AM   #9 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 8,004
 

Join Date: Jun 2016
Default

As to your inquiry I had X-rays last week and they found my thumb was broken in the fall. But it's already started knitting itself together so in order to fix it they would need to re-break it and set it again. I don't want to be unable to fly for weeks so am not having it fixed. It may be a bit crooked but it's 80% usable as is. I guess I am a true heli addict. Flying is more important.

Now start hiding some money away the wifey doesn't know about to buy that next heli
__________________
__________________
Team USED
Shape S8,G700,G500,Shuttle 550,Trex 500 E/EFL Pro,Oxy 3(2),B400(5),450X,360CFX,Fusion 270(2),230S (V1/V2),200S,120S,Nano (CPS/S2),K110/120/130
BrokeDad is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-22-2019, 07:57 AM   #10 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 134
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2019
Location: Stockport, Disunited Kingdom
Default

Excellent!

Thank you for your clear and concise explanation, allowing me to improve my understanding!



At least I will still see some improvement from using the new ESC even with the stock pinion, as the SBEC has a switch allowing me to run my servos at 6V (they are compatible with 6V - I've checked).

This leads to another question regarding using the in-built SBEC @ 6V; I have heard some commentators state that switching the SBEC from 4.8V to 6V will reduce the total current load on the ESC due to the increased voltage?

I suppose this assumes that the total power used is kept the same (P=I*V). As the servo specification shows increased performance at 6V, would the power draw increase (since you don't get something for nothing?).
__________________
Blade 400 3D "2019 Edition" - Stock 420H Motor, EFLA335H 35A ESC, Quark Spartan, Savox 0257MG servos all-round, Trex 500 skids, DX6i.

My YouTube channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjxIBBszfXNcHtNCM7dbELg
Beserkr is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-22-2019, 08:05 AM   #11 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 134
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2019
Location: Stockport, Disunited Kingdom
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokeDad View Post
As to your inquiry I had X-rays last week and they found my thumb was broken in the fall. But it's already started knitting itself together so in order to fix it they would need to re-break it and set it again. I don't want to be unable to fly for weeks so am not having it fixed. It may be a bit crooked but it's 80% usable as is. I guess I am a true heli addict. Flying is more important.

Now start hiding some money away the wifey doesn't know about to buy that next heli
Ouch! Sorry to hear that.

If I have any injury that's more than skin-deep I will always head to the hospital and err on the side of caution for that kind of reason. Though I suppose medical care is different in the US...

That's true dedication! As long as you don't need that extra 20% to fly.....!

I've already been thinking about an offshore heli-bank account to squirrel away funds. And been looking at Trex 470Ls and Oxy 4s, though the thought of a true 500-size does make me drool a bit...
__________________
Blade 400 3D "2019 Edition" - Stock 420H Motor, EFLA335H 35A ESC, Quark Spartan, Savox 0257MG servos all-round, Trex 500 skids, DX6i.

My YouTube channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjxIBBszfXNcHtNCM7dbELg
Beserkr is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-22-2019, 08:05 AM   #12 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 10,574
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Atlanta, GA
Default

Nope BECs dont work that way. Increasing the current to the servos makes them faster and with higher torque which is of course why we do it, however that extra performance doesnt come for free.

Ohm's law will only apply if the voltage goes up for the exact same amount of work which means the motor in the servo would have to be changed to a lower KV to get back to the same performance and of course this negates the entire point of raising the voltage in the first place.

Bottom line is higher BEC current means your servos will pulling more amps, not less. This can become an issue if your servos happen to be more power hungry than others and raising the BEC voltage can possibly work against you by pulling more current than the BEC is rated for which can cause a brown out shutting the power down to electronics in flight. The current load on the ESC is a different matter altogether and is determined only by what the motor is demanding. The BEC setting has no effect there.

As stated in my other post, poor batteries will increase the current load on the ESC as the current goes higher if the battery voltage sags, but this is somewhat of a self correcting problem as the rotor RPM will also sag and slow down thus dropping the current draw back down again until the load is removed and the pack voltage can recover again. This is essentially bogging of the head
__________________
Tony
Synergy 516, Gaui R-5 Speed, Cypher Vtol Jet, Mini racing quad, Spirit FBL, Hobbywing and Scorpion Tribunus ESC, Xnova motors. The girl in my DX9 tells them all what to do
Xrayted is online now        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-22-2019, 08:54 AM   #13 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 134
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2019
Location: Stockport, Disunited Kingdom
Default

To be honest, I was rather sceptical about the assertions that others had made on changing the SBEC from 4.8 to 6V, you've only confirmed it with a logical explanation.

I knew that there was something that I wasn't taking in to account...

Not off-topic, there was an excellent thread from years ago which I found here;
https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=421511

EEngineer rigorously investigated the voltage under-shoot of the very ESC (EFLA335H) I'd just bought (how fortunate for me!) using a high-quality digital oscilloscope.

Now, I take these results with a pinch of salt in regard to my own setup (as the receiver on the B450X in particular is different to mine), but it appears to state that as long as the SBEC is run on the 6V setting, the risk of brownout should be relatively low. Besides, this ESC/BEC combination IS a big improvement on the 25A I was running, and I've not had any brownout issues so far.

For me, his methodology, reasoning and results were fascinating!
__________________
Blade 400 3D "2019 Edition" - Stock 420H Motor, EFLA335H 35A ESC, Quark Spartan, Savox 0257MG servos all-round, Trex 500 skids, DX6i.

My YouTube channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjxIBBszfXNcHtNCM7dbELg
Beserkr is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-22-2019, 09:57 AM   #14 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 10,574
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Atlanta, GA
Default

Yes, its a common mistake and many still make the claim that higher voltage = lower current when it comes to BEC voltage to this day. This is because of the recent trend over the last few year for models to be equipped with higher voltage packs in an effort to reduce the current draw due to ever increasing head speeds.

In the past a 450 sized model used a 3S pack and now similar sized models are 6S and so on because most are using screaming head speeds compared to days when the packs were lower voltage.

In that case, the motor KV is also different so yes a 450 turning 3500RPM with an 3600 KV motor on 3S will pull less current using an 1800 KV motor with a 6S pack because the RPm and work is still the same.

Many will then take that info and just assume that higher voltage must always means lower current, but they completely leave out the third part of Ohm's law which states that this only applies for the exact same work, and that is not what happens on servos since we cant alter the motor KV.

It won't be the last time you see this claim being made by others either, so as with anything you must do your own homework and investigate these things for yourself as you are doing.

As you stated in your post earlier, it is possible to really go down the rabbit hole on these subjects as there is also the debate that the momentary peak servo currents may be higher on hard load fast servo reversals when using the lower voltage and that using a higher voltage may help to reduce these peaks in some setups, however this is another self correcting situation where the servo just cant do the work and the speed and torque fall off and the current then drops back down as well.

It is possible that a current spike such as this could in theory trip a brown out if the BEC cant handle it. Despite this, it is not correct to make the general assumption or statement that higher BEC voltage automatically means lower servo current overall
Beserkr likes this.
__________________
Tony
Synergy 516, Gaui R-5 Speed, Cypher Vtol Jet, Mini racing quad, Spirit FBL, Hobbywing and Scorpion Tribunus ESC, Xnova motors. The girl in my DX9 tells them all what to do

Last edited by Xrayted; 08-22-2019 at 10:22 AM..
Xrayted is online now        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-22-2019, 10:21 AM   #15 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 134
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: May 2019
Location: Stockport, Disunited Kingdom
Default

Spot on there mate - I learnt a long time to not to trust everything you see, hear or read. If only more people were of the same mindset...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xrayted View Post
In the past a 450 sized model used a 3S pack and now similar sized models are 6S and so on because most are using screaming head speeds compared to days when the packs were lower voltage.
I hope you're not saying my 10 year old 3S-powered heli is outdated?!


Again, thanks for sharing your expertise. If you ever want to know anything about Project Apollo, now that's my specialist subject, but I don't think this is the right forum for that...
Xrayted likes this.
__________________
Blade 400 3D "2019 Edition" - Stock 420H Motor, EFLA335H 35A ESC, Quark Spartan, Savox 0257MG servos all-round, Trex 500 skids, DX6i.

My YouTube channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjxIBBszfXNcHtNCM7dbELg
Beserkr is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply




Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the HeliFreak forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your REAL and WORKING email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself. Use a real email address or you will not be granted access to the site. Thank you.
Email Address:
Location
Where do you live? ie: Country, State, City or General Geographic Location please.
Name and Lastname
Enter name and last name here. (This information is not shown to the general public. Optional)
Helicopter #1
Enter Helicopter #1 type and equipment.
Helicopter #2
Enter Helicopter #2 type and equipment.
Helicopter #3
Enter Helicopter #3 type and equipment.
Helicopter #4
Enter Helicopter #4 type and equipment.

Log-in


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




Copyright © Website Acquisitions Inc. All rights reserved.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1