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Old 12-28-2019, 12:47 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default New Havoc owner, some questions..

Hi Guys,
So i pulled the trigger on the Havoc. All went together well and looks fantastic!
So having been out the heli scene for a while im still removing the rust and many things V-Bar have changed, last one i used was a Vbar mini. Now as im on FrSky Taranis i've gone for the Neo non-Vlink and plugged in my own reciever. All looking good and wired up fine, all servos and channels seem to be working as they should.. except for the ESC which is causing me headaches.
So i noticed on the Vbar software that 'Motor' can be assigned to a switch. Is this bascially a throttle hold? So off is motor off and Run is on?
I have channel one set on a flat curve of 70% for the throttle (esc) and i was assuming that when i used the switch on the channel for setting motor to Run that the spool up would happen. But i just get nothing. In fact, no matter what value i send down channel one, the motor doesnt seem to do anything. So im pretty confused as to why this SAB speed controller isnt doing anything..

Any Ideas?

NOTES:
When the ESC initialises, the start up tones (played through twitching the motor) work and sound fine, so everything is working on that front.
The neo is up to date and showing solid green after initialising.
The esc does three start up tones, then the 6 beeps, then the longer beep. So it seems like all good to go but nothing is happening when i send it a value on channel one (plugged into the ESC port on the NEO)
There is another single wired plug that only comes about an inch off the ESC but i assume that is for a programmer?

Thanks,
Neil
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Old 12-28-2019, 07:34 PM   #2 (permalink)
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The esc is basically a shrink wrapped Hobbywing Platinum V4 60A. You may want to look at the manual for that first. If you want to do something beyond the Store Governor, then you’ll want the program box.

The short stubby wire is the RPM signal wire. I’m not sure why they made it so short. It would need to be extended if you want to plug into your FBL. There is another plug under the shrink wrap that plugs into the program box and/or provides telemetry data.
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Old 12-28-2019, 08:46 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I got it working, it was part of the vbar setup i didnt understand but its fine now.

So next couple of things:

1. just running it up with just the tail blades, it seems like there is a lot of vibration. Is anyone else finding this issue? Are there carbon aftermarket tail blades available for this bird i could try? I guess i can try to balance with tape on one blade to improve it but im a little surprised.

2. When i assembled the main head taking great care to install the thrust bearings the right way (large ID inner etc) once the whole thing was tightened up they did feel stiff and a tiny bit notchy.. again, anyone else have this? Im used to much bigger birds and usually when fully done up the grips will just flop with almost no friction. These didnt feel like that but wondering if on this one its normal?

3. Are the gains in the manual good starting points for the Vbar Neo? Or have people found they are too high or low in general?

Hopefully i can maiden it tomorrow.. fingers crossed, its been a while
Cheers,
Neil
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Old 12-28-2019, 09:47 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neilius View Post
I got it working, it was part of the vbar setup i didnt understand but its fine now.

So next couple of things:

1. just running it up with just the tail blades, it seems like there is a lot of vibration. Is anyone else finding this issue? Are there carbon aftermarket tail blades available for this bird i could try? I guess i can try to balance with tape on one blade to improve it but im a little surprised.

2. When i assembled the main head taking great care to install the thrust bearings the right way (large ID inner etc) once the whole thing was tightened up they did feel stiff and a tiny bit notchy.. again, anyone else have this? Im used to much bigger birds and usually when fully done up the grips will just flop with almost no friction. These didnt feel like that but wondering if on this one its normal?

3. Are the gains in the manual good starting points for the Vbar Neo? Or have people found they are too high or low in general?

Hopefully i can maiden it tomorrow.. fingers crossed, its been a while
Cheers,
Neil
As far as number 2, I wouldn't worry about it being notchy, If you pull outwards on the grips you should find they will be smooth when you rotate. This is what should happen in flight as centrifugal force takes over.


I don't run vbar so can't comment on those numbers but I know with spirit they weren't the same as the manual.


Fly it with the current tail blades and see how it flies first. I have gone through plenty of SAB plastic tails without problem.
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Old 12-29-2019, 09:59 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neilius View Post
I got it working, it was part of the vbar setup i didnt understand but its fine now.

So next couple of things:

1. just running it up with just the tail blades, it seems like there is a lot of vibration. Is anyone else finding this issue? Are there carbon aftermarket tail blades available for this bird i could try? I guess i can try to balance with tape on one blade to improve it but im a little surprised.

2. When i assembled the main head taking great care to install the thrust bearings the right way (large ID inner etc) once the whole thing was tightened up they did feel stiff and a tiny bit notchy.. again, anyone else have this? Im used to much bigger birds and usually when fully done up the grips will just flop with almost no friction. These didnt feel like that but wondering if on this one its normal?

3. Are the gains in the manual good starting points for the Vbar Neo? Or have people found they are too high or low in general?

Hopefully i can maiden it tomorrow.. fingers crossed, its been a while
Cheers,
Neil
1) tail should be smooth. The fin shouldn’t vibrate on the bench. Try it with the blades off. I cracked a grip in a crash and had a bad vib with the blades on but not when they are off. (I realize that this is a new build) If you can see motion (greater than 1-2mm) in the fin tip something is wrong. Maybe you can still fly it but it’s not a good sign.
2) shouldn’t be notchy, try pulling out as described above; if it’s still not smooth then you should check the bearings one by one.
3) gains need to be lower as described in the manual. Start with the defaults and reduce them. I’m not familiar with your FBL, but set them lower from the get go... (it’s in the manual for a reason )
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Old 12-29-2019, 11:57 AM   #6 (permalink)
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do you have the fireball or havok to compare? Or is this just general (but good) advice?

I just want to see if someone with the same model has noticed the same things. The tail is def vibrating too much for my liking so im going to pull it and the main head apart and rebuild them. Something just doesnt feel right to me in both. I've build many helis over the years so i know how much is 'acceptable' when it comes to vibration in the tail. Im just a little surprised as this hasnt even left the ground yet..
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Old 12-29-2019, 01:09 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neilius View Post
do you have the fireball or havok to compare? Or is this just general (but good) advice?

I just want to see if someone with the same model has noticed the same things. The tail is def vibrating too much for my liking so im going to pull it and the main head apart and rebuild them. Something just doesnt feel right to me in both. I've build many helis over the years so i know how much is 'acceptable' when it comes to vibration in the tail. Im just a little surprised as this hasnt even left the ground yet..
I have a Fireball and a Mini Comet. Something doesn’t sound right to me. I haven’t flown my Comet a lot, just a maiden but my Fireball has been flown, crashed and rebuilt a few times.
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Old 12-29-2019, 02:09 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Did you try pulling on the main grips to see if they were smooth?
Just some examples from other posts

https://www.helifreak.com/5914017-post7.html
https://www.helifreak.com/5914026-post8.html
https://www.helifreak.com/4826888-post2.html
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Old 12-29-2019, 02:33 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blarks View Post
Did you try pulling on the main grips to see if they were smooth?
Just some examples from other posts

https://www.helifreak.com/5914017-post7.html
https://www.helifreak.com/5914026-post8.html
https://www.helifreak.com/4826888-post2.html
OK so re the main grip. It does feel smmoth under tension, so im thinking this will feel smoother still after some flights. Either way the big concern right now is solving the tail vibes.

So what im doing at the moment is rebuilding the tail piece by piece and spinning things up to see at what point vibrations occur. So far ive spun up with just the tal shaft and also checked it rolling the shaft on a piece of glass, its not that its perfectly straight.
Next ive added the spindle, resteaded the grub to make sure its dead centre of the divot in the tail output shaft and again, no vibes all is good.

So now im working on the ALU grips and the thrust bearings. I will also double check bollt lengths and make extra certain the thrust bearing IDs are the correct way around. Ill install the grips and again spin things up to see if vibrations appear or not..

Ill keep you posted, working on all this now.

(ps thanks for your helps guys, nothing worse than problems on a new build! Last time i had them was on an Aurora.. those things were as premium as it gets.. just my luck lol)
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Old 12-29-2019, 04:11 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Well, stage 3 proved to be the culprit!

Adding the carefully reassembled grips and spinning things up is where the vibe returned. All the parts were closely inspected and everything looked identical on each side, so i thought likely a static balance issues, probably well within a gram, but clearly making the difference at the crazy rpms it does. Old tricks to the resuce, i started adding different sized M2 washers to the blade bolt on one side (without the blades in) to see if one side imporved things. Low and behold, we have a result! One tiny washer on one side did the trick, smooth tail right through the range!

With that sorted i tightened up the belt decently and took her for a quick madein hover. All good but the numbers suggested in the manual were way too high! So i reduced both the tail and main gains closer to the Trex 250 references in the configurator and now shes hovering like a well behaved pup

What a mission.. wecome back to helis eh?

Hopefully tomorrow i can get outside with her and dial things in. Hope ive got a good tail, i know its a bit hit and miss on these, but in the hover things looked promisingly solid.

Time for a beer, thanks again chaps
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Old 12-29-2019, 04:20 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neilius View Post
do you have the fireball or havok to compare? Or is this just general (but good) advice?

I just want to see if someone with the same model has noticed the same things. The tail is def vibrating too much for my liking so im going to pull it and the main head apart and rebuild them. Something just doesnt feel right to me in both. I've build many helis over the years so i know how much is 'acceptable' when it comes to vibration in the tail. Im just a little surprised as this hasnt even left the ground yet..
before you bought this heli, did you see all the problems people, including myself, have had with this heli and the tail problems?

you should finish the build and hover it and check the vibe analyzer in a hover..
maybe its deceiving, but in the pic, one tail grip looks closer to the shaft than the other.. like a bearing is hung up in the grip.
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Old 12-29-2019, 04:28 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neilius View Post
Well, stage 3 proved to be the culprit!

Adding the carefully reassembled grips and spinning things up is where the vibe returned. All the parts were closely inspected and everything looked identical on each side, so i thought likely a static balance issues, probably well within a gram, but clearly making the difference at the crazy rpms it does. Old tricks to the resuce, i started adding different sized M2 washers to the blade bolt on one side (without the blades in) to see if one side imporved things. Low and behold, we have a result! One tiny washer on one side did the trick, smooth tail right through the range!

With that sorted i tightened up the belt decently and took her for a quick madein hover. All good but the numbers suggested in the manual were way too high! So i reduced both the tail and main gains closer to the Trex 250 references in the configurator and now shes hovering like a well behaved pup

What a mission.. wecome back to helis eh?

Hopefully tomorrow i can get outside with her and dial things in. Hope ive got a good tail, i know its a bit hit and miss on these, but in the hover things looked promisingly solid.

Time for a beer, thanks again chaps
Would be interested to see the individual weights of the grips, I would be contacting SAB. What also looks odd is the grip with the washer on looks further out from the center than the other grip, as if there is an extra spacer in there. Might be the way the photo is, not sure.


Edit: seems tony and I got the grip thing at the same time.
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Old 12-29-2019, 04:42 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonys-heli View Post
before you bought this heli, did you see all the problems people, including myself, have had with this heli and the tail problems?

you should finish the build and hover it and check the vibe analyzer in a hover..
maybe its deceiving, but in the pic, one tail grip looks closer to the shaft than the other.. like a bearing is hung up in the grip.
OK, new picture attached squre on (almost - look carefully). The grips are even, just a trick of the light in the first pic. Also if that was the case, the weight i added would be opposite the grip further out, not on it to solve the imbalance.

Regarding the vibration analysis, how do i do that in the VBAR software? I can see a live view but not a way thats obvious to record. Or is that only a pro feature?

It seems nice and locked in the hover, tail fin is not vibrating at all at the tip and no waging. Hopfully the outdoor test will be similar..
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Old 12-29-2019, 05:13 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by neilius View Post
OK, new picture attached squre on (almost - look carefully). The grips are even, just a trick of the light in the first pic. Also if that was the case, the weight i added would be opposite the grip further out, not on it to solve the imbalance.

Regarding the vibration analysis, how do i do that in the VBAR software? I can see a live view but not a way thats obvious to record. Or is that only a pro feature?

It seems nice and locked in the hover, tail fin is not vibrating at all at the tip and no waging. Hopfully the outdoor test will be similar..
Yep this is exactly what I was thinking as well, it didn't add up so I thought it must be just the pic.
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Old 12-29-2019, 05:44 PM   #15 (permalink)
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that set screw is really close to the link..
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Old 12-29-2019, 05:46 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by tonys-heli View Post
that set screw is really close to the link..
it clears the link, i also thought it shouldve been smaller myself but its fully inserted and centred in the divot of the tail output shaft. Guess that's just the length they come in the havoc kit.

is yours shorter? Mind taking a look?
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Old 12-29-2019, 05:51 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I file them down so they don't stick out so much.. its wasted threads.
but as long as it isn't touching anything through the full travel, its ok.
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Old 01-02-2020, 07:53 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Do you guys not have tail heavy issues ? I move my esc to the front top to get better balance.
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Old 01-02-2020, 08:26 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Do you guys not have tail heavy issues ? I move my esc to the front top to get better balance.
It helps if you use the larger batteries (1250 vs. 1050mAh) You’re not the first person to put the ESC up front for balance.
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Old 01-02-2020, 08:37 PM   #20 (permalink)
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yep im using 1250s and the balance is perfect.
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