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View Poll Results: Your cyclic servo center to ball link distance in millimeters
12.5 4 57.14%
13.0 0 0%
13.5 1 14.29%
14.0 1 14.29%
15.0 1 14.29%
Other (Please explain) 0 0%
Voters: 7. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-01-2020, 05:45 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Question Cyclic Servo Center to Ball Distance??

There has been discussion of what is the optimum distance of center to ball link on for the cyclic servos for the Trex 470L.

Commons are distances are 12.5, 13.0, 13.5, 14.0 and 15mm.

What distance is working for you?
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Old 09-01-2020, 08:46 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I don't know the distance, but I ran the 2nd hole on my KST servos. If someone else here has KST servos surely they can measure.
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Old 09-02-2020, 02:52 AM   #3 (permalink)
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12.5mm exactly using the Tarot 'break-away' arms on my KSTs. This equates more or less, to the second hole out on the stock KST single arm which measures 13mm.

Worrying over a 0.5mm increment is 'splitting hairs' in my opinion and I seriously doubt that 0.5mm would make that much difference, anyway. Align seem quite keen on the 12.5mm option, though

As I said on the other thread, my 470LM flies perfectly so I have to vote for 12.5mm. I haven't tried any other arms/dims as the 'break-away/servo saver' factor is important to me...... and I see no need to interfere with the recommended set-up, which works well enough as it is.
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Last edited by Cyclone7; 09-02-2020 at 08:42 AM..
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Old 09-02-2020, 09:16 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Old 09-03-2020, 05:38 PM   #5 (permalink)
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12.5mm is what Align recommend and I think with that you end up with the arms parallel with the main mast which is the best geometry.

However, 12.5mm doesn’t allow the swash to be set up to give ‘perfect’ status lights on the MicroBeast. This is because the aileron balls/links will hit the servo cases preventing full down movement.

I think 15.0mm is more than necessary - I suspect somewhere between 13.0mm and 14.0mm would give the best compromise of best MicroBeast setup up and swash geometry.

I’d love to be able to test this theory but I have been unable to find any plastic servo arms that will fit my Align servos (DS450M 21T) with holes other than 12.5mm and 15.0mm.

If anyone does know of any servo arms that would allow me to try my theory (13.0mm to 14.0mm) I would be delighted to hear.

Until then, I’m sticking with 12.5mm, it has binding issues but in reality I don’t think the binding would happen in any of sort of flying that I intend to do.

I’d vote with two values, 12.5mm as it is what Align intended and gives the best geometry and 13.5mm because I suspect that will allow the FBL to be setup to get the most collective and cyclic travel without binding whilst staying close to the purest geometry.

Cheers,

Nigel
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Last edited by nheather; 09-03-2020 at 06:00 PM..
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Old 09-04-2020, 02:38 AM   #6 (permalink)
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My advice would be to stay with the recommended 12.5mm set-up and live with whatever throw that gives you, just short of the servos binding. That will still give you much more pitch and cyclic than you are ever likely to use. I have yet to get even close to using full 'in flight' collective or cyclic (scale and mild sport flying).
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Last edited by Cyclone7; 09-04-2020 at 03:09 AM..
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Old 09-04-2020, 03:09 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nheather View Post
If anyone does know of any servo arms that would allow me to try my theory (13.0mm to 14.0mm) I would be delighted to hear.

Until then, Iím sticking with 12.5mm, it has binding issues but in reality I donít think the binding would happen in any of sort of flying that I intend to do.
I found this idea on another post here on HF,.. but I tried it, and it worked out excellent!!! I already had a set of the SAB 380/420 arms, so I didn't have to spend any $$$ to experiment. The SAB arms have a hole in between the holes on the stock Align arms. This allowed me to get the MB to have the "acceptable" blue light on the max throw menu. I did end up still activating Swash ring in my TX,. and ball still touches the servo case at full forward and Ail throw, but now the 470 rotates the way I would expect!(V2 metal blade grips).

Until this change, I either had to let the servos bind pretty good in that setup menu,.. or try to enjoy flying when heli rotated as if in slow motion! I'm under the impression the pros that demo for all the promo vids use the outer holes because they could care less how long the servos last. My default setup flights, set to red light, and no binding, as per instructions (TX mode in BX) rotated so slowly, I thought I was going to crash from 5 mistakes high!
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Old 09-04-2020, 03:46 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by vultage View Post
I found this idea on another post here on HF,.. but I tried it, and it worked out excellent!!! I already had a set of the SAB 380/420 arms, so I didn't have to spend any $$$ to experiment. The SAB arms have a hole in between the holes on the stock Align arms. This allowed me to get the MB to have the "acceptable" blue light on the max throw menu. I did end up still activating Swash ring in my TX,. and ball still touches the servo case at full forward and Ail throw, but now the 470 rotates the way I would expect!(V2 metal blade grips).

Until this change, I either had to let the servos bind pretty good in that setup menu,.. or try to enjoy flying when heli rotated as if in slow motion! I'm under the impression the pros that demo for all the promo vids use the outer holes because they could care less how long the servos last. My default setup flights, set to red light, and no binding, as per instructions (TX mode in BX) rotated so slowly, I thought I was going to crash from 5 mistakes high!
This is exactly what I have found. When using the 12.5mm holes, if I dial down the cyclic limit to eliminate all binding I only get a red status light (the aim is to get a blue light according to the Microbeast instructions) - and because I use StudioX I can see the values when purple turns to red and red turns to blue so I know that it is only just red, turn it much lower and it would become purple.

Do you know what spline those servo arms fit. My servos (Align) use a 21T spline, I believe Futaba does as well but most others use 23T. I’ve not been able to find any suitable arms that would fit - doesn’t help that I am limited to online shopping and websites rarely give either the spline size or the dimensions.

As @Cyclone7 says, even with a red light there where be more than enough swash movement for what I need, but if you intend to fly hard 3D the 12.5mm hole is no good - probably why you see photos of Align 470s using the 15mm hole.

What you are effectively doing when you make adjustments in Menu L is to limit how much the cyclic will move - you are in effect putting in Dual Rates that are fixed, cannot be turned off. You will see this in flight as slower roll rates and a more docile response.

If you are a beginner (like me), or just want to fly in a mild, scale-like way (like me) then this isn't such a problem. I don't need huge cyclic throws, I don't need 12 degrees of pitch (11 or more than enough). hell, I probably don't need much negative pitch at all so will never encounter binding.

But if you want to fly 3D, then you aren't going to like the limited cyclic throw, and if you want to up your pitch to 13 degrees you'll find that you really need to turn the cyclic limits down to stop binding. You will end up with a helicopter that goes up and down like a rocket but left, right, forward and back like a slug.

What disappoints me is that Align must know this. They provide a kit of all the parts you need and instructions on how to build them but if you follow those instructions (setting the collective to 12 degrees) you will end up with very little cyclic movement. I actually think they realised this when they tried to make promotional videos and found that it was really lacking in 3D flying and so they moved the swash links out to 15mm - hence the photos you will see.

And hows this for a bit of conspiracy theory. I have set up the swash a couple of times and they have both come out near identical and in both cases the recommended swash arm length was at least 1mm too long. No problem, just adjust but it did make me wonder why using the exact parts they specify the stated arm lengths are too long. So this is what I'm thinking - when they produced the instructions they didn't realise that they had measured the length of the swash arms taken of a helicopter using the 15mm holes - I reckon if you used the 15mm holes the stated arm length in the instructions would be spot on, use the 12.5mm holes and you have to shorten them a little.

Basically I think the manual should include additional instructions for the cyclic servo arms

Quote:
for beginners or mild sport flying use the 12.5mm holes, link length 34.5mm
for 3d flying use the 15mm holes, link length 35.5mm

Note: the link length may be different if you are not using Align DS450 servos

Cheers,

Nigel
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Last edited by nheather; 09-04-2020 at 11:08 AM..
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Old 09-04-2020, 07:05 AM   #9 (permalink)
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At 12.5mm on the servo arm, my servo to swash linkages are exactly the lengths shown in the manual (35.5mm which puts my swashplate exactly where it should be) - I don't see why yours should be any different.

Last edited by Cyclone7; 09-04-2020 at 07:17 AM..
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Old 09-04-2020, 08:26 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nheather View Post
Do you know what spline those servo arms fit. My servos (Align) use a 21T spline, I believe Futaba does as well but most others use 23T. I’ve not been able to find any suitable arms that would fit - doesn’t help that I am limited to online shopping and websites rarely give either the spline size or the dimensions.
The SAB arms fit the stock Align servos. However, you do need to nip the tip of the ele arm so it doesn't hit on the bearing block.
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Old 09-04-2020, 08:30 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nheather View Post
I don't need 13 degrees of pitch (11 or more than enough). hell, I probably don't need much negative pitch at all so will never encounter binding.
The 470 manual says +/- 11 (at least my LM manual w V2 grips) I started out w my normal 12 but later tried 11 and it also helped w the same issue. Granted, I'm running 100% throttle,.. 11 is crazy snappy for the 470!!!
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Old 09-04-2020, 10:28 AM   #12 (permalink)
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I posted a request on the HF Align Support thread asking someone from Align to weigh in.

I have no idea if they will respond, but it might be helpful.

Thanks for staying on topic, all the observations and vote has been interesting
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Old 09-04-2020, 11:05 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vultage View Post
The 470 manual says +/- 11 (at least my LM manual w V2 grips) I started out w my normal 12 but later tried 11 and it also helped w the same issue. Granted, I'm running 100% throttle,.. 11 is crazy snappy for the 470!!!
My manual says plus and minus 12 degrees, not that I would use that.

I did go to see if there was an updated manual on their website but oddly they donít have a single manual for the 470, every other heli yes, but not the 470.

The LM kit didnít used to come with the V2 grips, they were just in the LT kit, that must have changed if your LM kit had V2 grips.


What SAB arms should I be looking for? Iím going to stick with 12.5mm for now but may get some SAB arms to try later?

Cheers,

Nigel
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Old 09-04-2020, 11:11 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone7 View Post
At 12.5mm on the servo arm, my servo to swash linkages are exactly the lengths shown in the manual (35.5mm which puts my swashplate exactly where it should be) - I don't see why yours should be any different.
Strange, the only difference is I think you said you are using different servos to me. I’m using the combo Align DS450M. Maybe the output axle on your servos is in a slightly different position compared with my servos.

On mine, using all combo parts, 35.5mm is far too long.

My orange Tarot break-away arms arrived today so I am going to fit them using the 12.5mm hole.

Cheers,

Nigel

Last edited by nheather; 09-04-2020 at 11:24 AM..
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Old 09-04-2020, 11:23 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nheather View Post
I did go to see if there was an updated manual on their website but oddly they donít have a single manual for the 470, every other heli yes, but not the 470.
http://www.align.com.tw/ManuaLib/Hel.../RH47E01XT.pdf
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Old 09-04-2020, 12:17 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Couldn't find a spec diagram of the DS450 servo, just a photo.

I did find the KST215MGv3 spec. also in a pdf
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Old 09-04-2020, 12:44 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone7 View Post
Thatís interesting.

But when I try navigating on their website through the menus selecting manuals I get to here

Helicopters - ALIGN

and there is nothing for the 470.

Had a look at the manual you linked. Ever so slightly different to mine, but still states plus and minus 12 degrees not 11 degrees and no mention of the V2 grips.

The only difference I could see is that on page 12 it says to use the innermost hole on the tail servo horn but in my manual it says to use the middle hole.

I wonder which one is correct?

Cheers,

Nigel
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Old 09-04-2020, 12:48 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Splitting hairs, for no useful gain. Any minor discrepancies are unlikely to have a significant impact on the heli's flight characteristics.
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Old 09-04-2020, 01:11 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlp3028 View Post
Couldn't find a spec diagram of the DS450 servo, just a photo.

I did find the KST215MGv3 spec. also in a pdf
Hard to measure to be honest, but Iíd say the distance from mounting hole to servo axle is at least 9.0mm, possibly as much as 9.5mm.

But that is stranger still because it would mean my swash arms would have to be longer, not shorter.

Cheers,

Nigel
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Old 09-04-2020, 02:51 PM   #20 (permalink)
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The SAB arms for the Goblin 380 fit onto the Align servos that came w combo kit,.. no idea what model they are.

Attached is couple photos of my manual, just for comparison.

I swear my box said LM,.. ie: the metal upgraded version, but I just realized that my Manual says LT,.. ie: Torque Tube,... Doh!!!
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