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Old 02-13-2021, 07:51 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Default Electronics and Motor Choices

What is everyone considering for their choice electronics and motor for their Genesis build ?
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Old 02-21-2021, 09:23 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Default Extrapolated Pinion Gears for Urukay Genesis

I received my Urukay Genesis and have made good progress on the build. I've got about 2 days into the build and have the majority of the mechanical systems completed.

A quick note during my build...the fuselage finish is in flat rather than gloss. When I was attaching the tail fin I had some of the adhesive seep from the joint slightly. Used some 800 to 1000 grit sandpaper to clean this area gently and found the results seem to match the flat finish extremely well. I sanded dry, but wet sanding would likely work better.

My servos are installed along with my ESC and motor, but I haven't completed the electronics configurations for the servos, FBL, and ESC set as of yet....today's project using the software from the various companies.

I considered several motors for the build, including Kontronik Pyros (750-50, 750-56, 800-48), and Xnovas (4525-530, 4530-525,Tareq 700 4530-550). I have. Tareq 700 (4530-550) in my collection of electronics supplies and have decided to use it on this build. My ideal max. RPM will be 1900.

My build uses the following components:

JR XBus RX
Bavarian Demon Axon FBL
MKS HBL-850 for cyclic
MKS HBL-880 for tail
Kontronik 250 HV-I esc
Xnova Tareq 700 4530-550 motor

I'll start with the blades provided with the kit for the main and tail blades (747mm main and 105mm tail).

I reviewed the motor/pinion combinations that are in the manual and made a chart of likely pinion gear combinations for various motors in the 4525 and 4530 class. The extrapolations are based on the 3 motors of each class that SAB had provided on their pinion chart (page 15 of the Genesis manual). The motors that SAB has on their chart are highlighted in yellow.

These are estimates of pinions that are based on simple mathematical extrapolation using SAB's recommendations, so I did not use eCalc or other estimating software.

Results from estimating software will most likely have different results that are more specific to the individually desired motor/battery/blade, rpm choices.

Please note: I don't make any claim these pinion gears will be correct for the motors I have listed in the chart, they are only estimates.

I thought I would share this in case it is helpful for anyone.
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Last edited by rcmorrow; 02-22-2021 at 07:50 PM..
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Old 02-21-2021, 03:59 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Thank you for the post rcmorrow. Please post some pics so we can see your progress.

How big is the canopy relative to a Kraken canopy? I hope its the typical massive Urukay canopy.
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Old 02-21-2021, 05:18 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Here are some pics of the build so far. I put a ruler in the picture of the Kraken and Urukay Genesis canopies for reference. It may be hard to see the markings, but hopefully it will provide a scale for comparison of both canopies.

Excuse the loose wiriring as I am working on the electrical systems today for the servos, FBL, and ESC basic setup......using software from Bavarian Demon and Kontronik to make sure all is working and set at the starting point for the first test flights.

After I get the programming completed I will take care of getting all wiring properly organized...tie wraps, wiring housing, etc.

I am very impressed with this airframe. The quality of the parts and fit is excellent.

It is very apparent SAB did their homework on this and made considerable advances in the design and engineering as compared to the earlier generations of the Urukay (the Urukay and Urukay Competiton).

I have always enjoyed my Urukay Competition (1st generation that came out about 4-6 years ago now that had a 3 blade head. I changed this to the 2 blade F3C head a year or so ago and am very pleased with its performance). While it is a bit heavy, it flies very well and has very good stability in a variety of conditions.

It will be enjoyable to fly both versions and see how they compare.
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Old 02-21-2021, 08:04 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Thank you for the pics. Keep us posted on the flight performance and how it relates to its former self.
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Old 03-06-2021, 03:39 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I had a chance to get out with the Urukay Genesis today and complete some limited hovering flights.

My estimated 20T pinion for the Xnova 4530-550 Tareq 700 seems to be a pretty good choice.

This data is based on using Optipower 50c 5000mAh 12s packs.

I set preliminary head speeds of 1400, 1650, and 1900 rpm, with a throttle range of 55% to 74.6% based on my estimates.

The data from the Kontronik 250 HV-I provided information to calibrate the throttle percentages correctly. This is based on collective throw of -11 to +11

1400 RPM: 57.9%
1650 RPM: 68.2%
1900 RPM: 78.5%

This is close to my target of 80% maximum throttle for the Kontronik ESC. I would guess I can increase the collective to -12 to +12 and still have a throttle percentage with enough headroom (-13 to +13 may be possible, with the throttle likely to be somewhere between 82% to 85%).

This should allow for 6 minute flights based on typical F3C flight aerobatics and hovering. This should leave 40% battery remaining based on the initial data.

I think potential the flight time is likely to be 8 minutes, leaving 20% of the battery remaining.

Data collected from longer flights with aerobatics will provide more complete information on the throttle percentages. I'll share those once I've collected the data.
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Old 03-06-2021, 09:25 PM   #27 (permalink)
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One of the guy's I fly with has three of these. Two are flying and the third is close to being ready to fly. Before you ask he has three because he competes and goes to the nat's and the worlds. Anyway they are nice.
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Old 03-07-2021, 03:36 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcmorrow View Post
I had a chance to get out with the Urukay Genesis today and complete some limited hovering flights.

My estimated 20T pinion for the Xnova 4530-550 Tareq 700 seems to be a pretty good choice.

This data is based on using Optipower 50c 5000mAh 12s packs.

I set preliminary head speeds of 1400, 1650, and 1900 rpm, with a throttle range of 55% to 74.6% based on my estimates.

The data from the Kontronik 250 HV-I provided information to calibrate the throttle percentages correctly. This is based on collective throw of -11 to +11

1400 RPM: 57.9%
1650 RPM: 68.2%
1900 RPM: 78.5%

This is close to my target of 80% maximum throttle for the Kontronik ESC. I would guess I can increase the collective to -12 to +12 and still have a throttle percentage with enough headroom (-13 to +13 may be possible, with the throttle likely to be somewhere between 82% to 85%).

This should allow for 6 minute flights based on typical F3C flight aerobatics and hovering. This should leave 40% battery remaining based on the initial data.

I think potential the flight time is likely to be 8 minutes, leaving 20% of the battery remaining.

Data collected from longer flights with aerobatics will provide more complete information on the throttle percentages. I'll share those once I've collected the data.
Nice! Have you measured the model weight, with and without batteries? Are you using a RX Lipo? Thanks, Luca
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Old 03-07-2021, 03:19 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I was able to get out this morning to get a couple flights and additional data.

The weather is still a bit cold here, about 36F or about 2C with variable winds of 5-10 mph (about 2-5 m/s).

Based on my eyesight the visibility and orientation of the green/white color scheme is good when flying closer, but becomes more challenging with increased distance.

Today's flights were within a range of approximately 100-200 meters horizontally and 150 meters max. altitude, flying left/right circuits.

Batteries were charged and kept warm in the car, the 12s packs had a temp of approximately 70F or 15.5C when initially installed for each flight.

Flight times were limited to 6 minutes. Remaining battery capacity was 42% after the first flight (relatively conservative flying at 1400 and 1650 rpm) and 32% after the second flight (more aggressive flying at 1650 and 1900 rpm).

Today's data logs from the Kontronik 250 HV-I showed that my expected rpm and Throttle % values are pretty good. Using the previous throttle %'s the headspeed was within 50 rpm of my target values of 1400, 1650, and 1900 with a collective range set to -11 to +11

The BD Axon is set up using the standard F3C setting in the programming menu when programmed via USB and BD software. All controls seem very good for a starting point of initial test flights. I currently use 25% expo on cyclic control and no expo on the tail. This will likely be reduced to 20% expo for the cyclic.

The cyclic and tail controls are responsive, allowing very good ability for completing any maneuvers that are typical of F3C as well as "soft 3D" flight.

Today's flights included hovering, level flight at slower speeds, high speed figure 8 circuits with relatively high banked turns, 180 stall turns, and large loops (no inverted flight or rolls today). Hovering was typically at 1400 and 1650 rpm, with forward flight and maneuvers at 1650 and 1900 rpm. Forward speed is very good overall, with the greatest forward speed when flying at 1900 rpm.

Hovering is very stable at my preset head speeds of 1400, 1650, and 1900 rpm. I found the 1400 and 1650 rpm values to be very good for this in particular.

Tail authority was good for hovering, forward flight, and all maneuvers completed today using the stock SAB 105mm tail blades. Both right and left pirouettes have good rotational speed (angular velocity) about the center axis of the helicopter body

Stability in the wind is very good due to the larger rotor disc, mass of the main blades, and overall mass of the helicopter. Wind penetration during forward flight and maneuvers was very good due to the mass of the helicopter.

I did not customize the FBL settings for now. The parameters can be changed within the software to achieve flight characteristics based individual flying style and preferences.

The final installation for my Urukay Genesis is the following:

MKS HBL850 cyclic servos
MKS HBL880 tail servo
Kontronik 250 HV-I ESC w/BEC running at 7.4 volts
Bavarian Demon Axon FBL
OptiGuard 480mAh backup in case of BEC failure
Stock SAB main and tail blades (747mm F3C mains and 105mm tail)

Airframe Weight w/o battery: 9 lbs 11.8 oz (4418g)

Battery Pack: Optipower 50C 5000mAh 12s 3 lbs 11.8 oz (1698g)

RTF Weight: 13 lbs 7.6 oz (6116g)

Comparatively, my Yellow/Blue (light) Kraken has an airframe weight of 8 lbs 13.7 oz (4016g) with the same ESC/servo/FBL installation, Kontronik 800-480 comp motor, and stock SAB main and tail blades (690mm main and 105mm tail), Using the same 12s battery packs the RTF weight for the Kraken is 12 lbs 9.5 oz (5712g)

Hoping for some warmer weather soon !
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Old 03-14-2021, 10:35 AM   #30 (permalink)
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A quick flight today.
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Old 03-14-2021, 04:00 PM   #31 (permalink)
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rcmorrow: Just wondering......why did you decided to use the OptiGuard backup since you had the option of simply placing a small 2S lipo in parallel with the output of the Kontronik BEC? I'm considering the Genesis but with a different color scheme as I don't see green very well in the air. Thanks for posting your information regarding the Genesis.

Mike
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Old 03-14-2021, 06:08 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Hi Mike....I think having a 2s Lipo is an excellent choice.....I actually have a 2s Lipo 2000mAh that I use on my 1st generation Urukay Comp. My Urukay Comp. is set up with a Castle Creations HV160 ESC, which does not have a BEC option. This works very well and insures the radio and FBL will have power should the ESC have any problems.

I know several pilots that are using the OptiGuard along with the BEC with their ESC's as back-up power successfully. My Kontronik ESC's seem to work well with this setup on recent builds: a light Kraken (blue and yellow version) using the Kontronik 250HV-I ESC and the Urukay Genesis using the Kontronik 250HV-I ESC. I use the same servos and FBL for both.

The OptiGuard automatically programs itself to match the BEC voltage on the Kontronik, which makes things easy. It also self-charges from the main 12s pack (with nominal current draw from the main pack) and remains ready for use should the voltage from the BEC fail for any reason. It won't give a long flight time, but is more than adequate to get the helicopter safely down should the BEC or ESC fail for any reason (assuming the ESC and main batteries have not ignited or worse).

Data from both of my ESC's (on my Kraken and Urukay Genesis) show the BEC is working within the acceptable range with no overload on the current for my setups (servos, rx, and FBL). If I remember the Kontroniks I'm using are rated for 10 amps continuous and 30 amps peak. I have them set to 7.4V to run the rx, FBL, and MKS HV servos.

I have always been a advocate for safety first. Keeping the radio system isolated from the ESC and main batteries is a very effective way of reducing possible failure points. I know on my large scale sailplanes (5m to 8.4m spans with weights of 12 to 25 kg) I always use isolated dual power regulators and batteries for the radio and flight control systems.....to have redundancy in case of power failure of one of the packs and regulators for any reason (no issues over the past 11 years with this setup, but that is never guaranteed !).

The OptiGuard is an alternative that I feel is effective. I will add that I wouldn't hesitate to change my setup should there be information suggesting it is not reliable as a redundant power system for maintaining power to the radio/FBL/flight control system of the helicopters.

I think the green color scheme is great....at a closer range of view. I noticed with my eyesight that I have increasing difficulty with orientation of the helicopter as the distance increases. The green scheme doesn't seem to have enough differential between the top and the bottom of the helicopter for my eyesight. I think going with something in the red/orange/yellow/black combinations would be more visible, especially if there is strong differential in color from the top of the helicopter to the bottom.

I have to say that I am very pleased with this helicopter. The quality of my kit was excellent and the build went well. The choice of electronics, motor, ESC have been excellent........based on the flights I have had so far. I am confident the helicopter and the electronics will continue to perform optimally, without issue, based on other builds I've completed using similar setups.

Bob

Last edited by rcmorrow; 03-14-2021 at 06:49 PM..
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Old 03-14-2021, 09:43 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Glad the Genesis is working out so well for you. My plan is to have the SAB custom shop produce a yellow/white/black Genesis for me. Orange is my most visible color at longer distances but I'm just not a fan of orange on helicopters so I've decided to give yellow/white/black a try. To make things easy for the custom shop, I'm leaving the basic design alone and just changing the green to yellow. Unfortunately, I'll have to wait until perhaps April to place the order as SAB is currently tied up producing the new RAW and Genesis kits.

Mike
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Old 05-07-2021, 10:29 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I am just getting ready to build a Urukry Genesis and was going to put the YGE 205 speed controller in with the Tareq 700 motor.

Is anyone aware any advantage or noticeable difference that the Kontronik 250 HV-I esc might have over the YGE?
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Old 05-18-2021, 02:43 AM   #35 (permalink)
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1 is 250 the other is 205 ?

anyway that's a question only you can answer,
will you use the extra ooomph ?,
does the price matter for you ? since the Krontronik is more $$$ ?

In any case Kontronik and YGE are both quality products
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Old 05-22-2021, 05:55 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Thanks for sharing all the information on this helicopter. I just got mine in, along with all the equipment and getting started on my build. Should be a fun assembly. First SAB helicopter and they are very nice, already thinking about getting the 3-blade Kraken!
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Old 05-22-2021, 07:13 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Nice package congrats - what kind of servos are those ?
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Old 05-22-2021, 07:42 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbach#1 View Post
Nice package congrats - what kind of servos are those ?
Thanks! Actually, those are just stand-in servos! So good good catch! Those are ProModeler Servos that were for another project. I will have all the servos on Monday and I will be using

Futaba HPS-HC700 HV for the Cyclic Servos

Futaba BLS276SV for the Tail Servo

I have been Futaba for almost 20 years now and this is the first time I am going to use the BEC on the Scorpion ESC. That is why I bought the HC servos, instead of the H servo. I normally use a dedicated 2S Lipo for the electronics and servos, but that is my scale setup. I wanted to keep it simple and I don't fly 3D and more of a sport flyer, so for me the BEC makes since this time. Thanks.

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Old 05-27-2021, 08:25 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Quick question.

I was assembling the Main and Front Tail pulley to the transmission. It says to use three of the 12 x 16 x 0.1mm shims between the Main and Front Tail Pulley, which I did. However it seems like there is a touch of play, about 0.1mm and if I install another shim from the shim bag, it feels good to me.

As I got to thinking about it and brings me to the question. Did SAB design it to have a little play in it at this point? And then when its up to temp, the tolerance would get tighter?

I just don't want to put the extra shim in it now and then it gets too tight later once up to running temperature. First time building a SAB, so figured I would ask. Thanks.
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Old 05-27-2021, 09:40 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Hi, as for all other Goblins, you need to leave a little vertical play there. In previous kits (Black Thunder, see extract below) the need of some play (0,5 mm) was explicitely mentioned...don't make it too tight, otherwise you'll have friction during autorotations.
Happy building...it's a great heli!

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