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Mikado V-BAR Mikado V-Stabi/V-BAR Flybarless System Software and Hardware Support


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Old 12-30-2020, 12:08 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Vbar rescue - massive failure

I was flying my 2nd flight ever with a neo pro rescue and a vbct. It was on a new nitroxy 5. I took the heli up to 100 feet in a flat hover and decided to hit rescue just to test it - it was on a momentary button switch

The helicopter went nose down and start accelerating into the ground. I tried moving the sticks - I had no control. I tried hitting rescue again - nothing. It just flew straight into the ground.

I'm really hoping I can figure out what happened here. If I cant I'll be sticking with Spirit.

What bugs me is that the radio said "rescue ended" bit I still had no control.

Now I did not calibrate the vertical horizon with this radio so I am hoping thats what caused the initial nose dive. What I find unacceptable is that I was completely locked out even after "rescue ended"

Please let me know if you have any ideas about what happened.
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Old 12-30-2020, 12:36 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Post the log from the crash flight, only way we can start looking at what happened.
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Old 12-30-2020, 02:13 AM   #3 (permalink)
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The thing is you shouldn't of been locked out even after the rescue started announcement.
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Old 12-30-2020, 04:37 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Hi,

did you try rescue on bench? it should move the swash straight upwards without any tilt. you even can simulate other rescues like i.e. inverted just to verify it is working correctly.

generally it should NOT be necessary to calibrate the Neo unless something special happened to the unit... they are well calibrated from factory (as Eddi confirmed several times on vstabi forum).

maybe high vibration level is the culprit... log would be helpful. and you could upload your Neo settings file too (plus explanation of mounting position/orientation)!

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Old 12-30-2020, 10:14 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabid121 View Post
Hi,

did you try rescue on bench? it should move the swash straight upwards without any tilt. you even can simulate other rescues like i.e. inverted just to verify it is working correctly.

generally it should NOT be necessary to calibrate the Neo unless something special happened to the unit... they are well calibrated from factory (as Eddi confirmed several times on vstabi forum).

maybe high vibration level is the culprit... log would be helpful. and you could upload your Neo settings file too (plus explanation of mounting position/orientation)!

Ciao
Michael
Yeah it seemed to work when I bench tested it, thats why I tried it in the air. I'll see if I can get the log off the radio. My guess was also vibration.
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Old 12-30-2020, 08:31 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Your lack of control would suggest a mechanical issue. Link came off, servo failure, canopy jammed on a link, something like that.
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Old 01-02-2021, 04:14 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Thankyou for your patience. I figured out how to open and view the log. It looks like it had something to do with vibration. I'll post a picture of the screen tomorrow.
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Old 01-02-2021, 06:18 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Sorry to hear about your crash

High vibration could certainly explain why rescue put the heli into a nose down orientation. It's harder to figure out why control was not restored after you released rescue. Only thing I can speculate is that the vibrations were so bad that when coupled with sudden application of collective and cyclic pitch (when rescue was activated) the gyros were completely overwhelmed and control lost.

The log would be interesting.
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Old 01-03-2021, 02:50 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Here are the logs. Let me know what you guys think
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Old 01-03-2021, 07:53 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Although vibration might be a contributing factor, after rescue start you have a gyro error then what looks like a restart of the NEO which clearly shouldn't happen.

Do you have any logs from a time when you tested the rescue on the bench?

There is also a problem with the governor not being able to respond correctly possibly through bad setup or bad engine tune.

Quote:
It's harder to figure out why control was not restored after you released rescue.
Control on the VBC(t) is not removed whilst rescue is in progress. This has been an issue for some pilots who forgot to let go of the sticks.
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Old 01-03-2021, 08:12 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Vibration warnings is normal for 3D flight. There was only one Xtreme vibration warning so not really the cause of the crash, which is indicated by the sensor value out of range.

The real strange issue is that RESCUE started 3 times in quick succession and only ended after the crash. How is your RESCUE switch configured?

I would suggest you open a ticket at VStabi on this particular Neo.
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Old 01-04-2021, 03:35 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
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The real strange issue is that RESCUE started 3 times in quick succession and only ended after the crash. How is your RESCUE switch configured?
That's what i found strange. Rescue starts 3 times but only turns off after the actual impact (I assume the sensor out of range was the crash impact)

Could it be an incorrect switch setup?
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Old 01-04-2021, 11:32 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Vibration warnings is normal for 3D flight. There was only one Xtreme vibration warning so not really the cause of the crash, which is indicated by the sensor value out of range.

The real strange issue is that RESCUE started 3 times in quick succession and only ended after the crash. How is your RESCUE switch configured?

I would suggest you open a ticket at VStabi on this particular Neo.
The multiple "rescue starts" I think were me panic hitting the button when swirling the sticks didnt work to shut it off.

I bought a used VBCt that has a push button momentary rescue switch. Ill try putting this neo in a less expensive model and seeing if I can get the rescue to work ok on the bench. My other neo shuts the rescue off as soon as a swirl the switches.

Quick question: with Mikado rescue, do I have to take my thumbs off the sticks prior to hitting rescue? I'm used to not having to take my thumbs off with spirit, so I wonder if that contributed.
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Old 01-04-2021, 12:08 PM   #14 (permalink)
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See Mikado's description here

https://www.vstabi.info/en/node/1930

"Cyclic and collective control ist [sic] still possible during the rotation. So you are always able to oversteer the inputs of the rescue automat. If this may be needed, use big inputs, since the rescue will fight your inputs for a few seconds. Usually its [sic] better to not intefer [sic] with the rescue until it is finished."

I seem to remember seeing entries like Pilot Oversteer in the NEO log if you made large movements to the cyclic during the rescue.
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Old 01-04-2021, 12:08 PM   #15 (permalink)
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When I test rescue I usually just hit the switch, let it recover and then I take control of it.. for me thereís no reason to try to fight it with the sticks I let it do itís thing..
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Old 01-04-2021, 12:41 PM   #16 (permalink)
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The multiple "rescue starts" I think were me panic hitting the button when swirling the sticks didnt work to shut it off.
Yes, that may be the case but what is surprising is there is no 'rescue ended' message until after the impact. It's as if you have rescue button set to turn rescue on when you hit the button, but not turn off again when you release the button.

Whenever i setup rescue I have it on a button or spring toggle switch so that rescue is only active while I'm holding the button/switch. As soon as I release rescue it turns off.

I'm not up to speed on VBC programming but this could be due to incorrect switch setup in the Tx software?
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Old 01-04-2021, 09:54 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Rescue turns on and will only turn off once heli is level, it cannot turn ON and then ON again in succession, even if you hold the activation switch. For rescue to work properly it needs to be activated, then the activation switch must return to "ZERO" for the cycle to complete and hand back normal control to you and be ready for the next activation of rescue. If not it will be "stuck" in rescue and not allow normal control, but the user can "oversteer" while rescue is active with the relevant "OVERSTEER" entries in the log.

That is why Mikado wants it on a spring loaded momentary switch. If the previous owner have modified it to a push button then that is your problem as it is non standard and not knowing how he wired the button to work.
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Old 01-05-2021, 01:41 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Rescue turns on and will only turn off once heli is level, it cannot turn ON and then ON again in succession, even if you hold the activation switch.
Wow.. isn't that REALLY dangerous? I'm thinking in exactly the situation we (possibly) have here. If the heli does not level because vibrations have messed up the gyros, so the heli does not level, wont this mean that rescue will be 'stuck on' and cant be turned off? All you can do it try to battle against it and hope that rescue comes to it's senses and turns off?

The systems I'm used to (Spirit or Brain/iKon) are only in rescue mode for as long as you hold the spring toggle/button. As soon as you release then rescue turn off. This means that if rescue messes up and doesnt work as expected all you do is release the switch and you have normal control back.

Anyway.. what you describe would certainly explain the crash. High levels of vibration messed up the gyros. Rescue became 'stuck' in the on position because the heli could not achieve what it thought to be level. A crash is pretty much inevitable in this circumstance. If Wstuart was used to the iKon/Brain rescue system then he would have assumed that releasing the switch would de-activate rescue.
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Old 01-05-2021, 05:49 AM   #19 (permalink)
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you can still control the unit though by giving big inputs (I believe this is the case with brain2 as well?) .. he said he was not able to still give inputs ... nothing happened...
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Old 01-05-2021, 09:12 AM   #20 (permalink)
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you can still control the unit though by giving big inputs (I believe this is the case with brain2 as well?) .. he said he was not able to still give inputs ... nothing happened...
I'm thinking that if he thought it worked like the Brain, he'd have expected rescue to end when he released the button. The need for 'extreme inputs' to fight against a wayward rescue which was trying to crash the heli would come as a big surprise. If you werent expecting it, the need for extreme inputs would certainly feel like the heli was unresponsive. When you only have a split second to react this confusion would be more than enough to lead to the crash.

Just seems to me like a far more sensible and simpler solution is to have rescue activate when you press the button and de-activate when you release it. I genuinely thought that all rescue systems worked that way, it just seems like the obvious way to do it.
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