Fun, Learning, Friendship and Mutual Respect START  HERE


Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Electronics Support > Mikado V-BAR


Mikado V-BAR Mikado V-Stabi/V-BAR Flybarless System Software and Hardware Support


Like Tree4Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-05-2021, 09:39 AM   #21 (permalink)
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Dec 2006
Default

That's why you read the instructions and test things out before actually needing rescue.
__________________
Don't quote me to answer please, just add a comment.
Andy from Sandy is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 01-05-2021, 10:15 AM   #22 (permalink)
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Aberdeen, UK
Default

^^^^^That would be a valid comment 'if' the instructions actually clearly stated that rescue remains active even when you release the rescue switch/button: https://www.vstabi.info/en/node/1930 (they dont)

Furthermore testing on the bench would not reveal the issue, because the heli is already level so rescue would disengage right away. The OP was actually trying to test rescue in flight (following bench testing), which is what caused the crash.

I cant see how you can pin this one on 'user error'.. The system seems to be an accident waiting to happen IMHO. I for one would expect rescue to disengage when i released the button, and nothing in the instructions say's otherwise.

Anyway, lay the blame for it where you will, I think it's now pretty conclusive as to the cause of the crash in this case.
SyncRate likes this.
__________________
Gob Kraken |Gob 700 BT 'T' | Gob 770 Comp | SoXos Strike 7 | Henseleit TDR, TDSF & TDR2 | Kasama Dune | OMP M1&M2 | UK stockist for OMPHobby M1/M2 ScotiaRC.co.uk

Last edited by Smoggie; 01-05-2021 at 10:40 AM..
Smoggie is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2021, 11:02 AM   #23 (permalink)
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Dec 2006
Default

I am not trying to blame anyone. There was an impression that control is lost when in rescue I pointed out that is not the case. You have a mind for how you would like rescue to work and the NEO doesn't do that hence don't assume. That was my reply to your earlier post.

I don't think the NEO stays in rescue mode until the model is upright but I am not in a position to try that at present.

From a momentary switch you flick it and hear rescue start, the model recovers and is climbing out, then you hear rescue end.

If on the bench the model is upside down you would still hear rescue start and rescue end because rescue has a time limit and will not go on indefinitely but the testing from Mikado is if the model responds as it should the cyclic input would of ended well before the time out. The fact control is not lost you don't need to wait for rescue end announcement before "flying" the model again.

If you recall from post #1 the model was in a hover so it should of just climbed out the same would be seen with the model on the bench.

Why the model should nose down I don't know.
tonys-heli likes this.
__________________
Don't quote me to answer please, just add a comment.
Andy from Sandy is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2021, 12:58 PM   #24 (permalink)
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Aberdeen, UK
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy from Sandy View Post

Why the model should nose down I don't know.
That's the easy part to explain.. The heli is a nitro, log showed constant high and occasional extreme vibrations. The sensors got confused and lost track of which direction was 'up'.. This is not that unusual, I've seen it before a few times. When you hit rescue, instead of going 'up' it goes in some random direction due to the sensors being confused by the vibrations.
__________________
Gob Kraken |Gob 700 BT 'T' | Gob 770 Comp | SoXos Strike 7 | Henseleit TDR, TDSF & TDR2 | Kasama Dune | OMP M1&M2 | UK stockist for OMPHobby M1/M2 ScotiaRC.co.uk
Smoggie is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2021, 10:09 PM   #25 (permalink)
Registered Users
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Jan 2012
Default

Hi, O.P. here:

I use rescue frequently with my Spirit units. I tested it pretty thoroughly on the bench before trying it in the air.
I noticed Mikados system works a little different from Spirit's system. With Mikado when you press rescue is puts the helicopter into a series of maneuvers that upright, level and apply positive collective. Whats cool is if I hold the heli upside down, I can watch the vbar apply negative collective. If I flip the heli by hand it then apply positive collective and says rescue end. It works awesome on the bench!! Even if I release the momentary switch rescue will keep going for up to 4 seconds. While bench testing I observed that any one of three things can make "rescue end" before the 4 seconds is up:

1. The helicopter achieves an upright level orientation.

2. I swirl the sticks

3. If the helicopter starts level but I move it to a non level orientation. ( I make the rescue mess up on purpose). The vbar seems to recognize that something is wrong and ends rescue.

What concerns me is that I am watching the vbar on my crashed nitro operate perfectly when bench testing, but it did not do this while in the air. I would have hoped that the vbar would recognize that rescue was failing and said "rescue end" when it pitched forward - just like it does on the bench now after the crash. Maybe it was vibrations?

I have an oxy 4 and an electric oxy 5 that I am going to test my other neos with. I will also send this vbar into mikado.
__________________
Diabolo 700 2018 /. Henseleit TDF, TDR 800
TT E700, Align Trex 700L v2, Oxy 5 Meg, Nitroxy, 4 max, Oxy 3.
Kontronik, Spirit, Futaba
Lynx Heli field rep. lynxheli.com

Last edited by wstuart; 01-05-2021 at 10:27 PM..
wstuart is online now        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-06-2021, 03:52 AM   #26 (permalink)
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Dec 2006
Default

Can you confirm if after hitting rescue for the first time it only took 2 at most nearly 3 seconds, based on the elevator out of range error, for the model to hit the ground?
__________________
Don't quote me to answer please, just add a comment.
Andy from Sandy is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-06-2021, 09:24 AM   #27 (permalink)
Registered Users
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Jan 2012
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy from Sandy View Post
Can you confirm if after hitting rescue for the first time it only took 2 at most nearly 3 seconds, based on the elevator out of range error, for the model to hit the ground?


Yes, it took 2-3 seconds to hit the ground, I think the elevator out of range came as a result of hitting the ground.

My only guess as to what may have happened was that maybe when I hit the rescue button again in a panic (which you can see in the log) maybe it prevented it from popping out of its bad rescue? Whats disappointing is that I had no way to regain control. I was hitting the rescue button and swirling the sticks to try to get control of the heli, but it just flew itself straight into the ground.
__________________
Diabolo 700 2018 /. Henseleit TDF, TDR 800
TT E700, Align Trex 700L v2, Oxy 5 Meg, Nitroxy, 4 max, Oxy 3.
Kontronik, Spirit, Futaba
Lynx Heli field rep. lynxheli.com

Last edited by wstuart; 01-06-2021 at 01:04 PM..
wstuart is online now        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-06-2021, 01:15 PM   #28 (permalink)
Registered Users
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Jan 2012
Default

Is there anything in the radio setup that could cause this? Like in the pots?

Anything in macrocells? I only ask because I have no idea what macrocells are.

I just want to eliminate all the variables before I test this on my oxy4
__________________
Diabolo 700 2018 /. Henseleit TDF, TDR 800
TT E700, Align Trex 700L v2, Oxy 5 Meg, Nitroxy, 4 max, Oxy 3.
Kontronik, Spirit, Futaba
Lynx Heli field rep. lynxheli.com
wstuart is online now        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-06-2021, 02:20 PM   #29 (permalink)
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Dec 2006
Default

If you didn't set any macrocells then none should be configured. You did start a new model setup from scratch right?

macrocells is a bit like opentx where can pretty much do anything with a stick or switch input to create an output at the model.

One quick example would be on a glider to have some down elevator when applying motor power.
__________________
Don't quote me to answer please, just add a comment.
Andy from Sandy is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-06-2021, 04:25 PM   #30 (permalink)
Registered Users
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Jan 2012
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy from Sandy View Post
If you didn't set any macrocells then none should be configured. You did start a new model setup from scratch right?

macrocells is a bit like opentx where can pretty much do anything with a stick or switch input to create an output at the model.

One quick example would be on a glider to have some down elevator when applying motor power.

Oh I see. Thankyou, yes I did do a scratch setup
__________________
Diabolo 700 2018 /. Henseleit TDF, TDR 800
TT E700, Align Trex 700L v2, Oxy 5 Meg, Nitroxy, 4 max, Oxy 3.
Kontronik, Spirit, Futaba
Lynx Heli field rep. lynxheli.com
wstuart is online now        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-18-2021, 01:19 PM   #31 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 498
 

Join Date: Nov 2010
Default

I had a Logo 600 (with a Spirit Pro) do a very similar thing except this was spontaneous (no rescue activation): nose down and rapid flailing descent into the Mother. My transmitter was a Spektrum iX12 and the receiver was a full Spektrum with a couple of Spektrum sats. Unfortunately, I don't have flight log to share. The thing is, this also happened to another pilot also flying Spektrum at the same field within a couple of months previously. A very knowledgeable pilot at the field wondered if control was lost because of a radio frequency disruption from nearby (about 1 kilometre) high voltage transmission towers/lines. It is an interesting theory.

I wonder if other pilots have experienced this kind of control loss while flying in the vicinity of potential sources of radio frequency disruption. I have seen lots of videos of other pilots flying near what appear to be high voltage transmission towers without incident, but still, there's a lot of power there generating some strong magnetic fields. Fluctuations in those fields could be significant. Any high voltage engineers out there to comment?
__________________
Logo 600 (VBar Neo), Gaui X5 FES (BD3SX), Warp 360 (MiniVbar), Trex 450 Pro FBL (Spirit Pro), OXY 3 stretch (Spirit), OMP M2 Explore, two 180CFX (one uSpirit), 130X, XK110, Nano CPX
PassinThru is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-19-2021, 05:22 AM   #32 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 4,261
 

Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: USA::Ohio
Default

I experienced two of the four helicopters I had on spektrum + brain2 falling out of the sky for no reason. Thats why i'm on vbar now as it sent me looking for something new. I never lost control though, the motor just quit for no reason. No transmission lines nearby.
__________________
Vcontrol Touch, AccuRC & Heli-X Simulators
Oxy 5 MEG, 4 MAX, 2 (215)
SAB Goblin 500 Sport
XL Power Specter 700
fiddle is online now        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-19-2021, 05:29 AM   #33 (permalink)
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Aberdeen, UK
Default

I'm no expert however what i do know is high voltage lines operate at 50Hz AC Our radio systems operate at 2.4 BILLION Hz. So the two cant interfere. The only possibility i know of would be a serious fault that causes arcing in the electrical equipment, but if this were the case it would have probably shut the transmission system down, so highly unlikely.

There are very many things that can cause an RC heli to crash. Interference from electrical transmission systems 1km away is (if not impossible) way WAY down the list of most probable causes.
__________________
Gob Kraken |Gob 700 BT 'T' | Gob 770 Comp | SoXos Strike 7 | Henseleit TDR, TDSF & TDR2 | Kasama Dune | OMP M1&M2 | UK stockist for OMPHobby M1/M2 ScotiaRC.co.uk
Smoggie is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-19-2021, 07:16 AM   #34 (permalink)
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: always windy on the east coast
Default

our system is 60Hz.. but yea.. no way.
__________________
a bunch of helis... now all vcontrol and neo..finally :lol

Last edited by tonys-heli; 01-19-2021 at 07:29 AM..
tonys-heli is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-07-2021, 11:06 AM   #35 (permalink)
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: USA, Toms River, NJ
Default

Gentlemen, what we have here is muscle memory and Being familiar with your another system. With mikado you hit a spring loaded switch and release period. The heli will rescue itself and then you take control. What you did was repeatedly hit rescue also while fighting rescue. You probably also held the switch on at points in time. It’s not entirely your fault you reverted back to what you knew in a panic situation it’s being human. Yes the Vibrations are high, but I have Tested a nitro running filthy rich with vibes like crazy. I was able to do a figure 8’s and circuits and never once was it uncontrollable or did I lose control. Granted the heli was not happy and the tail was twitching A lot. What happens before a crash when we are in panic mode will always be foggy and unclear then we go back in our minds trying to piece it all back together which we can not do. There will always be missing pieces. As human beings pride, embarrassing, and the fact we just crashed a lot of money and time into the ground gets to us. Yes there our mechanical failures but most of the time it’s pilot error. Crashing is part of this hobby everybody crashes. We learn from them and try never to repeat it. The reason I pretty much know what went on in this situation is —— I did the exact same thing. flight logs don’t have an option and only show you hard data. Also do the horizontal level it would of taken out one Variable of the crash.
sharkman is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply




Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the HeliFreak forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your REAL and WORKING email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself. Use a real email address or you will not be granted access to the site. Thank you.
Email Address:
Location
Where do you live? ie: Country, State, City or General Geographic Location please.
Name and Lastname
Enter name and last name here. (This information is not shown to the general public. Optional)
Helicopter #1
Enter Helicopter #1 type and equipment.
Helicopter #2
Enter Helicopter #2 type and equipment.
Helicopter #3
Enter Helicopter #3 type and equipment.
Helicopter #4
Enter Helicopter #4 type and equipment.

Log-in


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




Copyright © Website Acquisitions Inc. All rights reserved.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1