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Mikado V-BAR Mikado V-Stabi/V-BAR Flybarless System Software and Hardware Support


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Old 02-26-2021, 10:33 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default NEO Motor and Bank functions

I have a new NEO Express that I'm having difficulty programming with my OpenTX radio. Mr. Mel's excellent but dated videos do not address current NEO setup requirements in sufficient detail to clarify the motor and bank functions to someone used to flight mode and throttle hold terminology in doing channel assignments.
Is there a video out there that explains this stuff in good English?
That would be worth a sticky for all those who, like me, aren't forking out the big bucks (CAD$1800) for a VBar Touch Control radio.
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Old 02-27-2021, 09:06 AM   #2 (permalink)
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why would you want a neo with open tx? plenty of other fbl options that prob work better with open tx..
the reality of it is all neo and vcontrol setups are built to be used together.
but the neo alone with other tx's, you loose the seamless fuctionality and no pc programming required.
we all know this when getting involved with vcontrol.

unless you just wanted to bash mikado, again
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Old 02-27-2021, 10:03 AM   #3 (permalink)
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"Banks" is the modern terminology for flight modes (normal, IDLE UP 1, IDLE UP 2, etc).

The "Setup" menu is where you set the "global" parameters that apply equally to all "banks". These include receiver binding, sensor mounting orientation, main rotor rotation, swashplate configuration, servos direction and center trims, 8° cyclic throw calibration, etc.

The "Banks" allow you to adjust the throttle curves, collective pitch curves, gains, agility etc., for each individual bank. Best to assign "Banks" to a 3-way switch.

What is generally known as "Throttle Hold", Mikado VBar calls it "AR" (autorotation) or "Motor Idle". The default configuration for "Motor Idle" is that you only adjust the throttle curve. You can assign whatever throttle curve you want, but it is meant to be a "Motor Idle" throttle curve. However, you can activate and assign "Bank 4" to "AR/Motor Idle" which would allow you to treat "AR/Motor Idle" as a 4th bank with fully adjustable parameters. Bank 4 values are higher priority than Banks 1/2/3 when there is conflict.

Think of "Motor off" as Bank 5. Motor is off. Parameters are not adjustable. "Motor off" is treated as higher priority than Banks 1/2/3 and AR.

My own personal opinion, if you don't plan to use a VBC radio, you may as well use one of the other excellent FBL units (Spirit, iKon2/Brain2, Axon, etc.)
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Old 02-27-2021, 02:47 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Tonys-Heli, I'm definitely not trying to bash Mikado and I don't recall ever doing so. Lots of heli pilots must have used VBar fbl controllers with 3rd party radios before Mikado radios appeared. I am using an older VBar Mini on a Warp 360 and like how it performs and had no problems setting it up. I also have an old Logo 600 that I think is an excellent design and flies really well. I also have several Spirit units and a BD3SX on other helis that also perform really well. However, based on my own experience crashing helis, I have come to wonder if Spirits are a bit more prone to damage. Hence my foray into the latest NEO. Notwithstanding, it's possible that the two Spirits that have gone wonky on me, i.e. have stopped functioning in one of the cyclic directions, have had to endure crashes that would have produced the same results on my other fbl controllers. Spirit fixed one for me gratis and I hope is fixing the second one as I write this. But I like trying new things and learning in the process.

Curmudgeon, thank you for your patient explanation. Do I understand correctly that banks are groupings of different flight parameters set up in fbl controllers, much like flight modes are in transmitters?
The Mikado Motor function is harder for me to understand but I will try to use your explanation to set up these functions on my radio.
Thanks again.
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Old 02-27-2021, 03:01 PM   #5 (permalink)
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You are correct in your understanding of Mikado Neo Banks.

I am all Neo Vlink at this time, but it is my impression that Spirit units are built more robust than VBar Neos. Currently, the only features that Neo offers that Spirit does not are "lightness" and "tail wag supression". Other than that, without a VBC radio, switching from Spirit to Neo is a step back IMHO.
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Old 02-27-2021, 05:18 PM   #6 (permalink)
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mini vbar and neo are worlds apart.

yes, the neo will work with 3rd party tx's.. but functionality suffers, but is really designed to work with full vcontrol. thats the easiest way to use it.
the older mini vbar was prob easier to use due to being dated. but trying to compare the old vbar and the way it was used to the new neo and full vcontrol, theres no comparison imo.. thats your reality check.. thats the part i thought you were bashing them.
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Old 02-27-2021, 07:05 PM   #7 (permalink)
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will work fine with 3rd part TX , here is mine with DX9 few yrs ago

vbar NEO setup with DX9 (9 min 20 sec)
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Old 02-27-2021, 08:40 PM   #8 (permalink)
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VBar Neo works perfectly with other radios, once you understand that your TX has to mimic the VBar Control functions to get the best setup and experience.

Some TX setups here https://www.vstabi.info/en/neo_transmitter

You must understand that the Neo will be in charge of the throttle or MOTOR channel and your TX TC are not, they are used to enable the MOTOR function or BANKS function. Basically your TX becomes a dumb controller with only stick and switch functions used.

With Open TX the closest would be the setup of Futaba transmitters and you use SBus to map the channels to the Neo

https://www.vstabi.info/en/node/1946
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Old 02-28-2021, 12:17 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Thanks for the feedback. This challenge is certainly keeping my retirement occupied.
As far as I can tell, the wiring from RX to Neo is correct.
Channel assignments on the setup tabs all respond to TX switches. The Motor and Bank functions appear to be working and match the channel monitor on my Horus.

I am trying to use the Neo Governor.
In Gov. II, I find that 'Motor off' occurs at -79% and 'Max Throttle' at 81%. By the way, it is only when doing 'Throttle Servo adjustment' that the motor spools up in response to the throttle stick. Hence the warning in the setup software I guess

On the main setup page, in the Governor box, the 'Gov active' bullet never lights up green. The 'Requested' headspeed shows 1500, 1700 and 1900 corresponding to Banks 1, 2 & 3. It never shows 'Current' headspeed, consistent with the motor never spooling up except as noted above.

I suspect I'm not allocating sources properly in the TX.
For those of you familiar with OpenTX (yes, I know there are infinite ways to program), on the Input page:
What should be "source" for Motor input?
What should be "source" for Bank input?
Do you have suggestions for corresponding Mixes?
Thanks again.
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Old 02-28-2021, 02:26 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curmudgeon View Post
... Currently, the only features that Neo offers that Spirit does not are "lightness" and "tail wag supression". Other than that, without a VBC radio, switching from Spirit to Neo is a step back IMHO.
„lightness“ is available on Spirit too, called „Anti-Gravity“ there. but i fully agree with all the rest you wrote!
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Old 02-28-2021, 05:29 AM   #11 (permalink)
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The TX should not have any channels to "throttle" the Neo is always in charge of the throttle output, you merely demand a rpm via the banks and the Neo will do the rest. You plug the ESC or throttle servo into the ESC channel.

If it is an electric heli then the ESC must give rpm out to the rpm port on the Neo for the Vbar governor to work, plus the ESC would need to support FBL governors.

Is this a nitro governor you are trying to set up? Nitro governor is only available in Pro firmware and above. You will need a rpm sensor plugged into rpm port.
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Old 02-28-2021, 01:27 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I'm trying to set up the Vbar governor for a (electric) Logo 600.
The ESC (a Castle Creations Edge 120A HV) master cable is connected to the ESC port on the NEO. The single white cable of this ESC is programmed to send "rpm out" and is connected to the RPM port on the NEO.
As to "The TX should not have any channels to "throttle..." This one I do not understand. Maybe there is a terminology problem here. All the radios I've ever seen have a channel assigned to throttle. Futaba is channel 3, Spektrum channel 1 and OpenTX any combination you want (TAER, AETR, TEAR,.etc), but throttle is always in there.
I have mixed throttle curves into three Banks via a mix with flight modes I've set up. There is no place I can see in the set up hardware where one can "demand a rpm via the banks". I note in my previous post #9 that the setup software does "request" a specific headspeed for each bank. Is this not correct?
I look forward to understanding.
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Old 02-28-2021, 10:17 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Maybe a misunderstanding, throttle output from the TX is NOT used at all. On some radios one would set TC's BUT this is to get the bank switch function working. Neo does not use any of your TC's for throttle at all.

CC ESC's need to be set correctly for using VBar governor. In the link below is the settings if you want to use the VBar governor, rpm will be set in each bank to what you want it to be. Although the link shows the VBC, the settings for the ESC is the same if you use VBar governor.

https://www.vstabi.info/en/node/1979
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Old 03-01-2021, 02:44 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Thanks Vinger, for the time you are spending helping through this.


I understand you to be saying that it really doesn't matter what I do with throttle inputs and mixes on my radio because NEO will ignore them anyway. Curmudgeon suggested creating additional banks for autorotation's 15% throttle. How do I create more than 3 banks?



I see that I will have to change my ESC programming to delete auto bailout.


Not ready to give up yet.
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Old 03-01-2021, 03:59 PM   #15 (permalink)
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its really easy with a vcontrol tx. the older ones are only 350 bucks usually. thats all i use.
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Old 03-01-2021, 10:12 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PassinThru View Post
Thanks Vinger, for the time you are spending helping through this.


I understand you to be saying that it really doesn't matter what I do with throttle inputs and mixes on my radio because NEO will ignore them anyway. Curmudgeon suggested creating additional banks for autorotation's 15% throttle. How do I create more than 3 banks?



I see that I will have to change my ESC programming to delete auto bailout.


Not ready to give up yet.
If you have set a 3 position switch to mimic MOTOR switch then no need for a 4th bank as it already has the IDLE position for autorotation practice.

You need to set your TX to get all the functions required by the Neo. So it is critical that in the TRANSMITTER tab all the functions work correctly.
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Old 03-02-2021, 11:16 PM   #17 (permalink)
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All of the motor and bank bars appear to work correctly in the Neo software Transmitter tab. I have linked throttle curves to the banks and they respond accordingly in the Aux 2 and Aux 3 bars.
Thank you.
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Old 03-03-2021, 08:58 AM   #18 (permalink)
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No need for throttle curves in your TX, as you have established they do nothing on the ESC output of the Neo.

Some transmitter setups uses the throttle curves to get the BANK functionality but other than that they do nothing to the ESC output.
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Old 03-03-2021, 04:27 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Thanks Vinger. I did the following after my previous post:
  1. 1. disabled autorotation bailout in the ESC.
    2. deleted all throttle curves
    3. made CH1 the source for throttle input in the INPUT page of my TX, and
    4. motor the source for throttle on the MIXES page.
Interestingly, the collective setting is no longer following stick movement, but corresponds to the bank switch. I'll look into INPUTS and MIXES to try to fix that in the TX.
When switching to "motor run" now, the Logo spools up!
However, it does not switch between the different headspeeds shown as "requested" on the Neo main page. It only stays at one speed that my laser tachometer, a DT-2234C+, reads as 3859 rpm (with the blades off and it's LOUD).
Again, the Governor display on the main Neo page shows the requested headspeeds of 1500, 1700 and 1900 rpm corresponding to the bank selected, and the magenta vertical bar rises without showing the "Gov active".

So, this is progress but we need to continue to work on this for the benefit of other pilots also using OpenTX radios with Neos or wanting to, without spending extra $ on another radio.
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Old 03-03-2021, 10:24 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Have you set the CC ESC to Heli linear? Does the banks change when you are in the setup software? Did you change the CC output to rpm and plugged it into the rpm port of the Neo?

Channel 6 is normally the collective channel with SBus mapping. Does this show correct movement in the Neo software?
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