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Old 06-11-2021, 04:19 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Tail wags on collective punch

Hi all, I seem to have a tail wag during fast collective punch and tictocs What could cause this? All mechanics are smooth. I'm on neo.
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Old 06-11-2021, 05:19 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I struggled with exactly the same thing. I did a ton of stuff and ended up resetting my whole setup after a friend gave me some advice.

After a fresh setup, first I setup my main gain. Just do fast forward passes left to right and right to left trying to push the collective to make it go fast until it fast wags, increase 5 points at a time. When you reach a point where it wags, drop it 10 points. I noticed dropping only 5 points still caused the tail to wag on harder tail maneuvers, like funnels.

Then I played around with the Collective Precomp. I basically have it fully off. To make it even better I dropped some points on the I gain.

I still have some but I think my issue is with the governor. The 570 after this tuning I made it disappear to 98% but it is still present on the 500, noticeably although not as bad as before. I will play around with the governor gain next. I am using the Hobbywing governor store mode and not the FBL governor since I didn't want to have to deal with tail kick issues.
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Old 06-11-2021, 08:39 PM   #3 (permalink)
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This issue is pretty common. I use to chase this issue and spend hours and endless flights trying to tune it out. I finally gave up, any heli is going to have it. Tuning it out is pretty difficult, just get it as close as you can within the first 3-4 tuning flights and just fly.

Play with the collective precomp. I usually go in increments of 5-10 and see how it changes and then adjust. As long as the tail is holding and not rotating in tik tocs you should be fine.
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Old 06-11-2021, 09:34 PM   #4 (permalink)
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What gets to me is that I see a ton of flights online pros and fun flies where the tail is rock solid. I really would like to get it there. Granted may be easier on a 700 than smaller ones. My 570 is much more stable than my 500.


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Old 06-11-2021, 09:43 PM   #5 (permalink)
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What size heli?
Head speed that it wags at?
Where is your tail gain set at now?
I really don't think "Precomp" will help the tail wag,if anything it will worsen the wag.I use precomp for better tail hold during:
punch outs
hard stops
fast big air maneuvers

On my 700 size heli's i've gone down as low as 37-40 (1800-2000 head speed) on the tail gain and still have decent tail hold,but than again i don't know the size heli you're referring to.If you say all your mechanics are confirmed smooth,than i would lower the tail gain gradually until it's gone.I test it by doing hard stops, lateral flights and collective punch outs to 100 ft then suddenly stop and observe the tail,than i do it again on the way down full collective and do another hard stop.
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Old 06-11-2021, 09:43 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toadiscoil View Post
What gets to me is that I see a ton of flights online pros and fun flies where the tail is rock solid. I really would like to get it there. Granted may be easier on a 700 than smaller ones. My 570 is much more stable than my 500.


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This also got to me, but i think they just move it so fast and whip the tail around everywhere you don't even notice. I found flying with that is normal as long as tail holds after the wag at initial punch.
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Old 06-11-2021, 09:53 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
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This also got to me, but i think they just move it so fast and whip the tail around everywhere you don't even notice.
I don't know about that...
A tail wag is seen and can also be heard during a maneuver no matter how fast the maneuver is performed (especially if you know what you're listening for).
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Old 06-11-2021, 09:54 PM   #8 (permalink)
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did you guys do a tail optimize flight?
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Old 06-11-2021, 09:55 PM   #9 (permalink)
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It's for the XLPower 520 running at 2300 hs and also happens to my protos 380 running 3000 hs.
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Old 06-11-2021, 10:03 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I use to own an Oxy4Max and at 3000 head speed my tail gain was set at 25-27 tail gain doing fast backward hurricanes and inverted backward loops to test out the holding power at my gain setting,held rock solid at 90-95% negative collective (at least from my experience).
Anything higher than that,my tail would wag.
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Old 06-11-2021, 10:09 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flipboy View Post
I don't know about that...
A tail wag is seen and can also be heard during a maneuver no matter how fast the maneuver is performed (especially if you know what you're listening for).
True, at some point you have to accept it moves a little without the wag is what i meant. Tune it to 90% and leave it.
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Old 06-11-2021, 11:26 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Thanks guys. Let me play with the settings again and get back. I have tried lowering the tail gain and it does help but I just wonder if it's something else. But the thing is that my 700x and Specter on the neo are very well behaved. No wagging at all and I pretty much tweak them the same way. My x5s same size running same 2300 headspeed also no wagging problem, and the gain on them are like in the 70s whereas I have to lower the gain on my xl 520 down to 40s to see any improvement.

Last edited by AllanNg; 06-11-2021 at 11:40 PM..
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Old 06-12-2021, 12:42 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllanNg View Post
Thanks guys. Let me play with the settings again and get back. I have tried lowering the tail gain and it does help but I just wonder if it's something else. But the thing is that my 700x and Specter on the neo are very well behaved. No wagging at all and I pretty much tweak them the same way. My x5s same size running same 2300 headspeed also no wagging problem, and the gain on them are like in the 70s whereas I have to lower the gain on my xl 520 down to 40s to see any improvement.
Be sure you are doing this without any governor. Tune it without gov and then try the gov.

tail wag like this can be caused by the gov and trying to "tune that out with tail gains" won't ever happen lol. You're going to go crazy trying.

I'd start with gov off, get the tail gain right based off what you see on the forums (Fast forward flight until it wags and then -3)...... once that's in place play with the precomp.
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Old 06-12-2021, 06:53 AM   #14 (permalink)
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This helped me to get mine to behave properly. Usually still some tail settings that must be adjusted a bit after but it gets you 95% of the way there: https://www.vstabi.info/en/node/2043

Before I did that on my specter, it was having tail blowouts on simple maneuvers (i only know simple ones LOL).
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Old 06-12-2021, 09:36 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Acceleration causes this in some cases. Tail stop's are also should not be too sharp.
You can eliminate that wag with these parameters.
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Old 06-12-2021, 01:02 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Going through this right now with my new Trex 500X, absolutely hate this heli right now. I am only using the Neo without pro software and wondering if I will still be able to tweak the problem out of the tail? I remember having the same issue with the older Trex 500 and after updating to pro and following Mr Mels tail vids I got it just about perfect.
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Old 06-12-2021, 03:25 PM   #17 (permalink)
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run the tail optimizer several times in each bank
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Old 06-12-2021, 04:26 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Yeah I will run the optimizer and see what happens.

By the way Tonys-Heli your location could not be more correct. It has been windy every singe day here in NY or at least it seems.
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Old 06-12-2021, 04:39 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Kite flying weather..

Just make sure when you run the optimizer to do it in all banks and also just hover for a little bit..let the tail optimizer do itís thing, and then do left and right piroís, full deflection.. stationary. Some fast stops both ways. Then turn it off.
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Old 07-05-2021, 05:18 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I think the OP is stating a kick out not really a wag per say
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